The Republic of Heaven

Lets see if we can get another discussion going. For a start: I always thought Will represented Adam, as Mary enticed them both towards sin, and he and Lyra were in love, and there was no other Adam character although he is obviously important. But people keep telling me Will didn't represent Adam. Why is this?

Your guess is as good as mine moonie...
Maybe the people who say this are complete idiots perhaps?
I hope i didn't just make more enemys by saying that...

Didn't Mary and Will live in the same Oxford?
This doesn't really belong to this thread but i don't know where else to put it..

Will didn't live in Oxford at all.

You're missing the point of the Adam and Eve thing, Will was probably representing the apple as much as Adam. Mary was the serpent and Lyra Eve but it never mentions that Will was Adam.

Either it doesn't matter who Adam is or Will represents the apple. I know we've never thought about that way but think about it. He is her temptation.

Will representing the apple isn't something I'd thought of. You could say they are both each other's temptation because they fall in love. But I think it would be more appropriate to say that sexual feelings are the temptation. The apple is love. Ain't that sweet?

Anyway, Moony, who keeps telling you that Will doesn't represent Adam? I can't understand why people would think he doesn't, although it's not made explicit in the books.

Well didn't Will and Mary live in the same world?

maya91 wrote:Well didn't Will and Mary live in the same world?

Yes. But Will lives in Winchester, not Oxford.

Yeah i know i just forgot.

Mary and Will lived in the same world, but they didn't know each other until the adventure started.

Will wasn't Adam. Whether or not Will fell in love was irrelevant to the prophecy, and therefore irrelevant to the redirecting of the Dust flow. Lyra, for her part, coul have fallen in love with anyone for the prophecy to be fulfilled. Will simply existed as the object of her affection, and didn't matter in his own right. Yes, he influenced the storyline of the two books he was in, but he wasn't the deciding factor in the Dust issue.

That's why I think Will got the short end of the symbolism stick.

I disagree. Will was the one Lyra fell in love with. That makes him Adam. Lyra wouldn't have been able to fulfil the prophecy without him. They wouldn't have been able to free the dead without him. He's the knife bearer after all.

Here's a question. Would the Dust flow have altered if it was only Lyra who fell in love with Will, and he hadn't fallen in love with her too?

No, they both needed to fall in love.

I agree that they both needed to fall in love, and I think that Will was Adam. He couldn't have been anyone else and if there was an Adam then Will was him.

Zodiac wrote:Mary and Will lived in the same world, but they didn't know each other until the adventure started.

Will wasn't Adam. Whether or not Will fell in love was irrelevant to the prophecy, and therefore irrelevant to the redirecting of the Dust flow. Lyra, for her part, coul have fallen in love with anyone for the prophecy to be fulfilled. Will simply existed as the object of her affection, and didn't matter in his own right. Yes, he influenced the storyline of the two books he was in, but he wasn't the deciding factor in the Dust issue.

That's why I think Will got the short end of the symbolism stick.

Yeah, I also disagree. Will was pivotal for Lyra to recognise herself as an adult and lose her innocence. Will had changed the plot very heavily by the end of TAS, and without him I don't think Lyra could have fallen in love.
As for the people who said Will wasn't Adam, Zodiac was one

I'm not saying that Will wasn't important, or that he didn't influence the story or anything, I'm just saying that he wasn't Adam.

This can only be explained by color coding:

The Book of Genesis describes the first humans as being Adam and Eve. The prophecy tells us that Lyra is Eve. Therefore, Lyra is the one who has to fall in love. Lyra only has to fall in love with someone. That someone is Will. He is the object of Lyra's affection, but he is not the one who has to fall. Simply being the lover of Eve does not make one Adam.

Done. If I haven't convinced you guys, at least I've made a very decorative post.

Strange logic you've got there Zodiac. I would say that if Lyra is symbolically Eve, then the obvious conclusion would be that her lover is symbolically Adam.

Does this mean that you think it wasn't necessary for Will to fall in love with Lyra too? You seem to be implying that only Lyra needed to Fall.

According to the prophecy, only Lyra needed to fall. And it more closely parallels the book of Genesis; The serpent temptsEve, just as Mary tempts Lyra. Eve is the first one who falls in the Bible.
Yes, it was helpful that Will fell in love with Lyra, otherwise she probably wouldn't have fallen. But that doesn't MAKE Will Adam.

That's part of the reason I like Will better than Lyra. He sort of got the short end of the stick. I'd like Will to be Adam, but the symbolism isn't really there. Just assigning people roles based on their relationship to Lyra doesn't work out. That implies that Lord Asrial represents God because he is Lyra's father.

Furthermore, we have to remember that Lyra did not merely symbolize Eve, the witches said she WAS Eve. Nobody mentioned that Will was Adam, he was the Knife-Bearer, an important role, but not Adam.

HaHa. Canada's Mexico. Nice Zodiac.
Now to be on subject:
Will is not Adam
Lyra is Eve
Mary is the Serpent
Love is the Apple
Lord Asriel is God

If Will is not Adam, who is he? And Is Adam to be revealed? Is Rodger a possibility?
If Mary sot consule form Serafina then what is she considered to be?
Could Will be the Apple instead?
Since I am asking questions, are there other roles played by other characters?
Is the church symbolically the devil in this senerio since war is being raged apon them from 'God'.
What of Mrs. Coulter in this thought?

Personal Comment: Lord Asriel seems to be a cruel god, since he sacrificed Rodger to practically come into power.

*My spelling sucks, I know*

Wicca_forever02 wrote: Could Will be the Apple instead?

Are you suggesting that Lyra...

To use your reference to Genesis, Zodiac, I will say that Will IS Adam. The serpent tempted Eve by persuading her to eat from the tree of knowledge. Mary tempted Lyra to fall in love by telling her about Tim and that guy in Italy.

Then, Eve went to her husband (Adam) and gave him fruit from the tree. Lyra put the fruit into Will's mouth, the little red fruit that was clearly symbolic of the fruit from the tree of knowledge. The parallels are there, both Adam and Will were tempted by Eve and Lyra respectively.

I agree with Sophie. There is so much symbolism surrounding Will and Lyra falling in love. Once you look at what is made explicit in the text: that Lyra is Eve and Mary is the serpent, it's obvious that the symbolism can be extended. As Sophie says, the fruit that Lyra gives Will represents the forbidden apple. The setting, an idyllic grove, also resembles the Garden of Eden.

Will obviously has an important role in this re-enactment of the Fall. What then does he represent? I'd say it's pretty obvious...

The way I interpret it is that the characters had different parts to play. Indeed, Mary is told to 'play the serpent'. Just because nobody mentioned that Will plays Adam in this scenario doesn't mean he's not.