Do you think Mrs.Coulter deserved to die?

[Mogget]

"No. But I stopped believing there was a power of good and a power of evil that were outside us. And I came to believe that good and evil are names for what people do, not for what they are. All we can say is that this is a good deed, because it helps someone, or that's an evil one, because it hurts them. People are too complicated to have simple labels."

Which Lyra replied with agreement.

So to answer the question, I don't think Mrs. Coulter "deserve" to die. Her action that caused her death at that moment was noble. For me, it's beyond "end justifies the means", or this character is evil at 80%, and that one is good at 40%. "people are too complicated to have simple labels".

Well said, Windroll! I am in complete agreement, with this point to add:

Nobody really "deserves" to die. No matter what they did, Life is too precious to be torn from someone as a punishment. Also, Coulter consigned herself to complete oblivion and pain when she threw herself into the Abyss. That's far worse than any death, and surely saving the world (albeit indirectly) more than makes up for any past crimes.

Mrs. Coulter is quite possibly the most complex character in the trilogy, and certainly the one with the most conflicting motives and commitments. Anyone should take a very close look at all of Coulter's actions and think very hard before judging her.

In the end, her love for Lyra and for Life win over her desire to dominate, and that is all that matters.

[Donny]

I think Mrs Coulter is the most interesting, admirable and complex character. I love her, i don't think she deserved to die, but i like the way she is dead. maybe it is better like that because i can't imagine her, lord asriel and lyra like a family
She did very bad actions but she decided to sacrifice for Lyra, she felt sorry she knew she was a bad mother I had tear in my eye when she sacrificed with Lord Asriel it was sad but her death was necessary it was the charm of her character

[Peter]

Nobody really "deserves" to die.

Or, rather, everybody deserves to die. The privilege of life has its price; and that price is death.

Would you have it any other way?

[Enitharmon]

Nobody really "deserves" to die.

Or, rather, everybody deserves to die. The privilege of life has its price; and that price is death.

Would you have it any other way?

It's surely not a matter of 'deserving'. Death is just something inevitable, surely.

[Peter]

Nobody really "deserves" to die.

Or, rather, everybody deserves to die. The privilege of life has its price; and that price is death.

Would you have it any other way?

It's surely not a matter of 'deserving'. Death is just something inevitable, surely.

I reckon that if you deserve to live, you deserve to die.

[Mogget]

It's meaningless to say that people "deserve" to die, as death will come whether they do or not! However, Peter has a point. People have to die to make way for new Life, and that new Life builds on their old life. Life is certainly a privilege, and not one that should (or could) be extended forever. (Consciousness becomes a lot more precious when you only have 70-80 years of it, no?) Death serves as a motivation for people who are too stupid to realize that Life is a motivation in and of itself (not to mention a perfect protection against stagnancy.) Things change, and people die. New people are born to take their place. I can't think of anything that feels more right than the cycle of Life and death. As such, I don't think it's a moral issue, but rather something that is meant to, and must, happen.

That's my two cents' worth (and it's probably worth less than that)

[aklebury]

That's my two cents' worth (and it's probably worth less than that)

Worth at least four cents I think!
That was very well put - reminded me of The Lion King... circle of life and all that. Hee.

[BenMech]

If we're playing THIS game - - Lee Scoresby didn't deserve to die. Marisa Coulter did.

[Riali]

It's meaningless to say that people "deserve" to die, as death will come whether they do or not! However, Peter has a point. People have to die to make way for new Life, and that new Life builds on their old life. Life is certainly a privilege, and not one that should (or could) be extended forever. (Consciousness becomes a lot more precious when you only have 70-80 years of it, no?) Death serves as a motivation for people who are too stupid to realize that Life is a motivation in and of itself (not to mention a perfect protection against stagnancy.) Things change, and people die. New people are born to take their place. I can't think of anything that feels more right than the cycle of Life and death. As such, I don't think it's a moral issue, but rather something that is meant to, and must, happen.

Well said, Mogget!

Certainly, the cycle of life is rather beyond morality, but this conversation brings us smack-dab up against a question that fairly reeks of it.
Can any of us, lacking as we are in not only omniscience, but at also at times plain ol' common sense, ever have the the right to condemn each other to death? Or even to wish death upon someone without acting on the wish?
I'm not trying to open up a debate on capital punishment here, I imagine we all have our opinions about that fairly well cemented by now. I am however, pointing out that to me it seems to me that even thinking that the world would be better off without someone is fairly well, impertinent. If I recognize the fact that I really have no idea what the whole life and death thing is about, and what, if anything, exists outside of it, and that I don't even know what we're supposed to be doing while we're here, (42... nope, doesn't fit any of 'em) it seems not only cruel to wish the great unknown upon someone, but downright stupid. I just can't justify judging anyone's life as worthwhile or not, when I don't know the scale against which I am measuring it. Or even if there is a scale, come to that.

Which brings me back to the point that Mogget made, that the cycle of life and death is just that, a cycle, inevitable and omnipresent, and who are we to judge that?

[Mogget]

Glad I get to agree with you this time, Riali! Nice extension of my point; I would like to say (purely as my own opinion) that yes, it is stupid to wish death upon someone for this reason: Every man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, therefore ask not for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."--John Donne
Life is simply too wonderful to be thrown away in the name of something as fragile and transient as morality.

And yes, 42 really is the answer to all your problems.

[Kirsty]

She had to do what she had to do..
Ahem.

[Bellerophon]

In the film Unforgiven, the killer William Munny said it best:

Deserve's got nothin' to do with it.

[Halo Nerd]

Not at all. She lived horribly, true. In the end though she saw what she was and repented. I really wish we could've had deeper views into her life to see what had formed the monster that she used to be.

[reader]

no i recon she and asriel shudnt die and help lyra make the republic of heaven but they had to die to kill metron


like bilbo and gandalf say from the fellowship of the ring
"die? some good men die and bad people dont, no derserve has nothing to do with it frodo it is all about the time we are given and what to do with it" or summit like tht

[eggnostic]

yes she did.

but the sacrifice of her life redeemed her,
maybe, cutting away daemons, think about that.

I've lost my faith in a lot of things, but not the soul, never the soul, death first. Anyone who would try to take that away from me I have no mercy for.

[Ishka]

i think she deserved to die, she is a horrible person. She didn't care about Lyra til she was 12. She betrayed Metatron. She drugged Lyra.

She does eiteher deserve to die not ro live. no one does. did u understand what pp's is trying to say?. sorry don't want to be offensive.

[Lera]

Coulter's death didn't make me cry. I began respecting her more after the scene with Metatron. When she drugged Lyra I understood that Marisa is the greatest character I had ever read about. She made everything for her daughter's happiness. She is a real mother I think. And she is a kind of people who can change the world. Without cruelty she couldn't do it.
I think she didn't deserve to die, but it was her destiny, and Pullman couldn't finish her life in another way.

[Philharmonic]

I don't think so. She drugged Lyra because she wouldn't listen to her, believe her, or otherwise retain some of her original liking for her.

She betrayed Metatron-must run in the family! And then helped to sort of kill him. OK, maybe not kill him but you know, send him into that abyss that was made courtesy of Father MacPhail.

Although she did die she didn't deserve it.

[Lera]

Marisa drugged Lyra because she knew that her daughter didn't belive her anyway. And I don't think that Marisa was happy to see her own child in such condition, but she had no choise.

[mantelaema]

hmm... true. but there's no actual proof that she does die is there.
maybe they didnt?