Ambushed at Credibility Gap

[Melancholy Man]

Ahmadinejad is way ahead on you with that one, Qu Klaani.

The IDF's bombing the airport might have something to do with Israel's having been attacked by a rogue militia which is allowed to operate in the south of Lebanon with minimal interference from Beruit. Israel withdrew from Lebanon six years ago. What was Hizbollah targetting, if not the very concept of Israel? Ordinary Lebanese do despise Hizbollah for destabilizing Lebanon, but their government is not overly keen to do something. This probably has much to with the fact that Hizbollah is significantly better equipped. Either way, it has failed to control this lethal third force in its borders and if it cannot, or will not act, someone should.

Where does Hizbollah get its funding. From abroad? By air? Again, if the nominal government does not show any willingness to abide by its responsibilities - international law works both ways - it cannot really cry foul when someone does. And uses more than harsh language.

There's no pussyfooting around with crap like "illegally occupied territories" - this was a blatent attack across soverign borders by a bunch of squalid murderers which operates deliberately from civilian areas. Thus when civilians are hit in the response they have invoked, they get to claim to be the victims.

Whatever my thoughts are of the way post-invasion Iraq has been handled, I feel grateful for the removal of Saddam every day. Every single day. But not half as much as the Iraqis.

[Will]

Slide Six... now refers to grabbed troops in Lebanon as "captured". So this is a military action, now? Okay, unleash the dogs of the war. Squeeze the two Hs until the pips squeak.

Let's have a civil discussion this time. We're grown-ups, we can do it.

Alec, you should read the BBC Editors' blog, if you don't already.

As ever in reporting the Middle East, language - and the choice of words - is incredibly important. Was the soldier kidnapped or captured, were the Hamas politicians arrested or detained?

Our credibility is undermined by the careless use of words which carry value judgements. Our job is to remain objective. By doing so, I hope we allow our audiences on radio and television to make their own assessment of the story. So we try to stick to the facts - civilians are "kidnapped", Cpl Shalit was "captured"; since troops don't usually make "arrests", the politicians were "detained". Doubtless some will disagree. But that's, in essence, the heart of the story - two competing narratives.

[Qu Klaani]

I suppose you can appreciate why Israel are now blockading Lebanon to put pressure on the government (probably why they destroyed the runway in particular) but you can't really see it working. Their official position is supposedly that they wont accept any suggestion of a ceasefire with Lebanon until the soldiers are returned, call me pessimistic but how likely is that? Or that they're even still alive. It's a mess, as usually in the middle east you just have to hope no one else wants to get involed, hopefully Syria will accept the fact they'd lose badly and that it isnt worth it. Egypt almost certainly wont want to get involved thakfully.

I reckon it's on the Americans to help make themselves look better by sorting this out they're the only ones Israel will listen to.

Edit: did a post just disapear?

[Melancholy Man]

So far so good. As I said the last time we discussed the AI matter, there is a strand in English liberalism which roots for the underdog. This is good, but can sometimes go too far. Especially when, for the first time in modern history, those who have the upper hand are Red Sea Pedestrians.

Some times I want to slap the BBC silly, but I don't think there's any deliberate anti-Israel bias. This almost obsessive interest in using emotionally inert phrases extents to its reporting of all conflicts around the world. Both sides jump up and down in rage when their foes aren't described as murdering ~*dugong*~ scum. Maybe they think there's only one man working for the BBC's editing team, and he's out to get them. Or worse still, the CNJ. Nor do I really think the Grauniad is doing it either; although there are some contempuous people working there (see my question to Darren).

Although none are as poisonous as this chap. I thought the false MEMRI claim was bad. He should work for The Ineptent.

Egypt almost certainly wont want to get involved thakfully.

Because Egypt is an oddity in that she has abided by her side of resolution 242 and signed a peace treaty with Israel. Thus she was returned Sinai in 1979. R242 makes no reference to Israel withdrawing unilaterally.

but you can't really see it working.

I can. If there were more peaceful means, I'd prefer them. Yet Israel's thus far fairly measured response is entirely fair with regards to what was done to her. I admit I'm wavering a bit on the bombing of the airport, but based on the clear rationale [1] that exists behind the great part of her operations, I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt.

What would you suggest that she do? Take the advice of my sig? Unfortunately, there are no clear answers on this. What would clearly help the situation, though, is if the PA could accept it's not going to reoccupy the pizza and start helping its own electorate instead of harbouring old grudges and ridiculous ideas. It could stop riding off the kudos with well-meaning or not so well-meaning Westerners who think they're intelligent enough not to get tangled up in centuries of Jew-baiting and that the likes of the ISM are anything other than idiots of the Alden Pyle vein while anyone, such as myself, who offers sympathy for Israel is merely transferring residual guilt onto the Palestinians.

[1] Compared to the two Hs' rationale, which is to force Jews... oops, sorry... Zionists... nah... Jews into the sea.

[Will]

If only all the Jews would move to a delicious offshore land packed with cheese. That said, I do see the argument that Israel should be in America or Europe. It'd make a bit more sense than right amongst everyone who hates her the most. Bit late now though of course.

[Melancholy Man]

Will, it would make sense only if the aim of that Jew country (TM 'The Wire') was our getting rid of the RSPs [1]. A dream of returning to Palestine had been extant in Jewish rituals and prayers and culture for almost two millenia before the creation of the state of Israel. Mass immigration had been underway for almost a century. Jerusalem had been a Jewish majority city since the end of the 19th century. And, as Barry Norman never said, why not? Why should they not have a place where they are in control and can feel safe from danger? Why should we in Europe have been allowed to colonize entire continents, evicting myriad peoples, but the Jews not have a tiny foreskin of land the size of Wales?

Maybe I shouldn't dwell on the fact that she's so small, or that Gaza could fit in Leith. It spoils the idea of a GREAT BIG EVIL ZIONIST EMPIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Israel has made some ghastly mistakes, I don't deny. I have no desire to support her unconditionally. If she errs, we offer the strongest possible criticism. ~*iguana*~ up and toasting women and children is wrong. However, deliberately targetting women and children - as the scum in the two Hs do - is vile. Summer Rain is, I think, veering too close to the collective punishment of the Gazans. But, let's not get the situation topsy-turvy. The two Hs are terrorist bodies. A large part of the PA is now a mobocracy. If someone can claim to want to "understand" why the likes of Tanweer decided to visit his form of collective punishment on London, they cannot turn around as lambast the far more controlled form of it in Gaza.

We should shout loudly that Israel hold back and not demean herself. We should show tough love. What we should do, however, is shout even louder against the the two Hs. This does not happen, I'm afraid.


[1] Can someone tell me a derogatory term for Separdic Jews? Obviously, the K-word applies for Ashkenazys, but what about the ones who don't like chicken soup?

[Will]

Israel is held to higher standards/

Why should we in Europe have been allowed to colonize entire continents, evicting myriad peoples, but the Jews not have a tiny foreskin of land the size of Wales?

Every geographical comparison ever uses the size of Wales. They must be getting fed up of hearing how "an area the size of Wales" is burnt in rainforest every year.

[Melancholy Man]

I thought it was France, sometimes Belgium.

They must be getting fed up of hearing how "an area the size of Wales" is burnt in rainforest every year.

Nah, that's my setting fire to Bethan. I'll refer to it as Strathclyde, if it makes you happy.

Israel is held to higher standards

My guess is that you mean we should be more disappointed when she steps out of line because she is effectively a democratic state; no matter how imperfect. There are plenty of those, though, who use the matter of international law as a one-edged sword against they whom they loath. The only thing that exceeds their complete immaturity is their complete ignorance of the subject. I can have sensible political discussions with many neo-cons and unabashed supporters of this war (in Iraq) on account of our being adults. Swuppies or ISM goons or Chumpsky fanboys are impossible - they are always right on every subject. To these swine, they’ll be happy only if the Jews go back to being the perennial victim. If this happens, they always have Armenia - in very disputed occupation of one fifth of her neighbour's area - to pick on. That's not too far fetched, by the way. What focuses the hatred of Israel is, I have no doubt, good old fashioned anti-Semitism but - as we saw with the rebahilitation of Milosevic - anyone who opposes American "imperialism" is a fair ally. And to be seen to be championing a Muslim state (Azerbijan) or finding one innocent (Turkey/Ottoman Empire regarding the Armenian massacres). See the deeply creepy John Pilger slavering about the "Indian Empire".

As the (English probably) actress said to the bishop some 80 years ago; “I don’t hate Jews, just their brutish Asiatic religion”. David Irving’s twin brother is the head of his local race-equality board. Not to mention a Muslim convert. And a pig farmer. This looks ~*iguana*~ weird until one considers that they were born in 1937 into a certain social class. Their men-folk would have been sitting in drawing rooms at Edmonton reading Seven Pillocks of Wisdom while their women-folk arranged tea parties - “Oh, yah, that Adolph fellow is a bit brutal… well, he’s from the continent… but those Rosenfelds are just thugs“.

Here, by the way, Qu Klaani, is a reason why Israel may have bombed the airport.

Let's talk about something else.

<lowers assault rifle>

</Sgt Yonatan Piashetil>

<rushes off to ambush qassam crew>

[Townie]

http://www.john4leader.org.uk

Like, yeah maaan. Like its OURS, man. I say we take it back baby.

Ever seen that film Groundhog Day

[Melancholy Man]

And I thought the next Labor PM was going to be Alan Milburn. We might get a Labour one.

Okay, I've come to the conclusion that history is dead and nothing happens in the modern world which doesn't relate to David Beckham's sarong. Time to close this thread.

[jessia]

who killed history?

[Will]

The end of the Cold War did according to that Japanese guy.

[Melancholy Man]

Let me kill this thread! There's another one now. Let me be post-modern, damn you.