Hiroshima

[ljpdonnelly]

America did it to end the war quickly.
More Japanese may have died in normal bomb attacks but they wouldn't have surrendered because they could do the same to America

[Qu Klaani]

First of all, less of the use of the term "nuclear winter," tis utterly wrong for the situation.

It's all speculation when dealing with what ifs though.

Perhaps you dont quite understand what an invasion involves, seriously Darragh, the japaneese military were not interested in surrendering if they were invaded....it would have been a fairly unprecedented bloodbath. So its not speculation at all to say that many more (both allied and japaneese soldiers, and civilians) would have died otherwise. Don't get me wrong, I detest nuclear weapons, but the only thing that makes a difference in this case compared to the hundreds of other cities that got the crap bombed or shelled out of them is the after effect. Something which the Americans claim to have not really understood. Also, and this is a little disturbing, had the invasion had to occur the US military had given the order to make use of a number of nukes, the plans for the invasion are detailed here, particularly interesting is this:

On Marshall's orders, Maj. Gen. John Hull looked into the tactical use of atomic weapons. He reported that perhaps seven bombs would be available by X-Day, which could be dropped on defending forces. Col. Lyle E. Seeman advised that American troops not enter an area hit by a bomb for "at least 48 hours"; the risk of fallout was not well-understood.

Whether 100,000 people got killed, 1 million or 1, in any circumstances, I don't reckon it's justified. No matter how many get killed. I think that's the point I was trying to make.

The biggest justification the US has for ending the war with the atomic bomb is that they didnt start it, total war was waged on them by another military and while they didnt have to reply in kind (ie bombing the crap out of Tokyo and everywhelse else) they were justified in doing so.

I really dislike how Hiroshima is viewed as the big crime of the second world war by the allies, when Dresden was far far worse. I mean really, Hiroshima ended the war that had lasted for something like a decade (Im including the chineese here because its only fair) Dresden was nothing but revenge.

[Darragh]

I'm well aware what an invasion involves Qu Klaani.

I don't think killing 100,000 innocent people is justified. In any circumstances. Not even to save a million lives because for me the price of one life is infinite.

Your post was well thought out and put together with your usual clarity, you know more on the subject than I do. Been years since I studied it.

Anyways, off to the pub for the match...

[ljpdonnelly]

I don't think killing 100,000 innocent people is justified. In any circumstances. Not even to save a million lives because for me the price of one life is infinite.

The needs of the many out-weigh the needs of the few, springs to mind

[Kinders]

I don't think killing 100,000 innocent people is justified. In any circumstances. Not even to save a million lives because for me the price of one life is infinite.

Then.. surely the price of one million lives is one million times infinity? Um. Seems a bit silly.

[Qu Klaani]

A very interesting articleon the matter.

Now the weekly standard is pretty much the "neocon weekly" but the author of that article is a historian (and I think not a regular writer), and whilst there is clearly something of a bias, its not so bad that the article isnt very revealing.

[Peter]

i voted in the ignorance option. all i know, is that this time of year (pretty much just this day of the year really, because it's the only time it ever comes up - except for recently in the news, when the chinese were protesting japanese revisionism), my mother starts railing on the japanese and how they deserved it for what they did to china and korea and the people fighting in china and korea for the sake of imperial expansion.

i don't *believe* that there's ever any justification for using that kind of weapon of mass destruction on innocent people (but here, my mom will go on about how they weren't innocent, but o, weren't the overwhelming majority of them just civilians?) and this is totally a good call for nuclear disarmament... but i wasn't there. and therefore i am ignorant.

what was the official reason for attacking hiroshima? revenge over pearl harbour or putting an end to japanese imperialism?

Officially - hastening the end of the war. Unofficially - well, you name it. Revenge, machismo, scientific research...

It's interesting to note that it's probably more ethical to bomb the civilians of a democratic country (assuming those civilians voted for and support the war) than those of an undemocratic country (who have no choice in the matter).

[Jez]

On a moral level, it was very very wrong. It's difficult to see how killing thousands of innocent civilians can be jusitified. But from a more practical point of view, it did end the war quickly, so it made sense from that perspective. It's still pretty cold-blooded though. I wouldn't want to be the person who had to make the decision of whether to bomb them or not...

[Melancholy Man]

It's interesting to note that it's probably more ethical to bomb the civilians of a democratic country

Another point to consider is how little is said about Japanese atrocities against Asian populations, compared to criticisms of the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Part of me suspects that we can better forget one Asiatic horde massacring another Asiatic horde; after all, the little savages can't be expected to know any better. We, in our lofty superiority from the Enlightenment, *should* know better.

Richard Littlejohn proved this point, in all his sheer unlikability, during the Rwandan genocide.

[ljpdonnelly]

Did the pilot not also die in the blast

[Melancholy Man]

Did the pilot not also die in the blast

Nope. A number of the crew is still alive, in fact. That shocked me as much as the end-credits in Downfall.

[ljpdonnelly]

I remember hearing somewhere he died because he wasn't flying high enough

meh, you're probably right

[Blackdragon]

I have never heard that he died. I think that if he were to have died you would know his name a lot more. If anyone has any solid evidence I would be interested to see it.