Pullman attacks Narnia film plans

[slideyfoot]

As was mentioned earlier, you generally need both. However, it is possible to successfully write a great plot with limited character development; the obvious example would be allegory, such as The Faerie Queene, where the characters are merely representations of abstract concepts (though the genre of allegory is long past its heyday). Another related issue would be the use of stock characters in literature, or indeed drama, dating from Greek tragedy. Shakespeare does this a lot with the figure of the clown or fool - Feste in Twelfth Night and Touchstone in As You Like It, for example.

I can't think of too many examples of successful work consisting of excellent characters mired in a limited plot, but I'm sure they exist.

[Peter]

As was mentioned earlier, you generally need both. However, it is possible to successfully write a great plot with limited character development; the obvious example would be allegory, such as The Faerie Queene, where the characters are merely representations of abstract concepts (though the genre of allegory is long past its heyday).

The best-seller list? Lots of busy plots and crap characters to be found there.

Another related issue would be the use of stock characters in literature, or indeed drama, dating from Greek tragedy. Shakespeare does this a lot with the figure of the clown or fool - Feste in Twelfth Night and Touchstone in As You Like It, for example.

Ah, but drama is different. There are actors and directors involved, who are in a position to bring life, quirks, individuality, to these stock characters. Actors love to play Shakespeare's clowns, because of the opportunities they present.

I can't think of too many examples of successful work consisting of excellent characters mired in a limited plot, but I'm sure they exist.

Forget about the mire and try some 20th century literary fiction. Virginia Woolf, say?

[slideyfoot]

Only things I've read by Virginia Woolf were right back at the start of undergraduate; Orlando, which remains one of my favourite books due to the central premise, and Mrs Dalloway, which...doesn't (though the games with perspective were interesting). Is she generally known for character over plot?

I keep meaning to beef up my knowledge of prose, but the PhD being based on poetry chokes out most options. Still, I have been grabbing fantasy reading when I can get it, hence Titus Groan at the mo. All helps with inspiration; no doubt you've done something similar, considering your fanfiction?

[Peter]

Only things I've read by Virginia Woolf were right back at the start of undergraduate; Orlando, which remains one of my favourite books due to the central premise, and Mrs Dalloway, which...doesn't (though the games with perspective were interesting). Is she generally known for character over plot?

I would say so. What about you, Rosie?

I keep meaning to beef up my knowledge of prose, but the PhD being based on poetry chokes out most options. Still, I have been grabbing fantasy reading when I can get it, hence Titus Groan at the mo. All helps with inspiration; no doubt you've done something similar, considering your fanfiction?

I've read lots of stuff. But back to character and plot for a mo... I speak from personal experience here, as you might have guessed. I have written stuff in which the plot was paramount and the characters' job was to obey my orders and respond to my pulling of their strings. But I find it far more satisfying to get to know a character first and then consider what trials and tribulations I should put that character through so that his or her personality etc can be (a) revealed and (b) developed. It's the inside-to-outside approach rather than the outside-to-in, although obviously it's not quite as rigid as that would suggest.

I'm stuck on a story now, as it happens, because I don't know enough about the protagonist. She's had a very bad experience and is seeking a way to recover from it. I had lots of fun describing the bad experience and her initial reactions, but how to help her? I'm not sure yet, because - like an analyst or counsellor with a new client - I don't know her sufficiently well.

[Jez]

So, Ceres, do you usually invent your main characters first and then work out a story to go with them?

I tend to get an idea - a premise, if you like - usually on the lines of 'what if...', then I figure out a main character, add a couple more and see if I can make a story out of it. The premise usually gives me a vague idea of what will happen, but I need a few characters to really start plotting.

I wonder (desperate attempt to bring this slightly back on topic), did Lewis specifically think 'I am going to write a Christian allegory' after his initial inspiration with the faun in the wood, or did it just happen?

[Peter]

So, Ceres, do you usually invent your main characters first and then work out a story to go with them?

Yes, mostly. Sunny Moon started out as a name - nothing else. My first attempt at characterising her produced a Stacey Slater type (whom I still rather like). The second try gave me the Sunny I ended up writing about, whose internal contradictions were more of a challenge.

I wonder (desperate attempt to bring this slightly back on topic), did Lewis specifically think 'I am going to write a Christian allegory' after his initial inspiration with the faun in the wood, or did it just happen?

I'm with the "it just happened" camp. It seems clear to me that Lewis wrote TLTWATW straight off, with little advance planning, just to see how it would turn out. That's why it's such a jumble of ideas and influences. The sequels derived from it, and are slightly better thought out, IMO.

[slideyfoot]

I wonder (desperate attempt to bring this slightly back on topic), did Lewis specifically think 'I am going to write a Christian allegory' after his initial inspiration with the faun in the wood, or did it just happen?

I'm of the opinion that LWW was written primarily as a fantasy narrative, after which the books gradually increased in their Christian allegory (reaching fruition in The Last Battle), with allegorical readings applied retrospectively to the entire series by fifty years worth of criticism.

However, that is based purely on a textual analysis, rather than a full understanding of all the secondary material. There are a ~*pineapples*~ of letters to go through (considering he apparently responded to just about every bit of correspondence), which may or may not clarify matters as to what his intentions were. Of course, he may well have modified his own interpretation of what his intentions were the greater the distance between him and his original drafts became.

Are there many letters dating from the period leading up to the composition of LWW that mention Christian allegory in a Narnian setting? I've seen odd snippets, but no doubt someone somewhere has done a proper examination (though that level of interest tends to be motivated by bias, so objectivity becomes a problem; Lewis biographies are a case in point).

[Jez]

I'm of the opinion that LWW was written primarily as a fantasy narrative, after which the books gradually increased in their Christian allegory (reaching fruition in The Last Battle), with allegorical readings applied retrospectively to the entire series by fifty years worth of criticism.

I always thought that TLTWATW was one of the more allegorical in the series, considering that Aslan is basically Christ, resurrection and all.

I agree that the allegory reaches its climax in The Last Battle though. That line: 'And He no longer appeared to them as a Lion...' always gave me goosebumps.

[Peter]

I'm of the opinion that LWW was written primarily as a fantasy narrative, after which the books gradually increased in their Christian allegory (reaching fruition in The Last Battle), with allegorical readings applied retrospectively to the entire series by fifty years worth of criticism.

However, that is based purely on a textual analysis, rather than a full understanding of all the secondary material. There are a ~*pineapples*~ of letters to go through (considering he apparently responded to just about every bit of correspondence), which may or may not clarify matters as to what his intentions were. Of course, he may well have modified his own interpretation of what his intentions were the greater the distance between him and his original drafts became.

Are there many letters dating from the period leading up to the composition of LWW that mention Christian allegory in a Narnian setting? I've seen odd snippets, but no doubt someone somewhere has done a proper examination (though that level of interest tends to be motivated by bias, so objectivity becomes a problem; Lewis biographies are a case in point).

I'll see if I can find out when Lewis made his "Past Watchful Dragons" statement. That might help clarify his intentions prior to writing TLTWATW. Or not.

EDIT: here it is...

To the Children's Book Section of the 18 November 1956 NewYorkTimes Book Review, C. S. Lewis contributed an essay, "Sometimes Fairy Stories May Say Best What's To Be Said":
I thought I saw how stories of this kind could steal past a certain inhibition which had paralyzed much of my own religion since childhood. Why did one find it so hard to feel as one was told one ought to feel about God or about the sufferings of Christ? I thought the chief reason was that one was told one ought to. An obligation to feel can freeze feelings. And reverence itself did harm. The whole subject was associated with lowered voices; almost as if it were something medical. But suppose by casting all these things into an imaginary world, stripping them of their stained-glass and Sunday school associations, one could make them for the first time appear in their real potency? Could one not thus steal past those watchful dragons? I thought one could.

The date is post-Narnia, so it doesn't help.

[Jecce]

I find quite a bit in the books, actually. Love I mean. It's pretty easy to find.

[DutchCrunch]

I find quite a bit in the books, actually. Love I mean. It's pretty easy to find.

Is that just a extremely short summary of everything said above? Or a contribution in the sense that it is not really Christian propaganda but a shallow story with easily identifiable themes like 'love', which is in my humble opinion a rather weak theme just in itself?

Edit: Reading this back it sounds harsher than it's meant to. It's an honest question.