The Republic of Heaven

PostPosted: **Sat Mar 08, 2008 7:16 pm**

Variety wrote:One way or another, Forte won't give up the fight. "I will make 'The Subtle Knife' and 'The Amber Spyglass,'" she vows. "I believe there are enough people who see what a viable and successful franchise we have."

'Compass' spins foreign frenzy

PostPosted: **Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:33 pm**

I wish she would give up after all her meddling with the first film. I really dread what they'd do to the final movie. I'd like to see them give it to someone else who can start again from scratch.

What do Americans think about why it did so badly? Was it the marketing? I thought the marketing over here was pretty poor, I hardly saw anything for it at all.

PostPosted: **Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:51 pm**

Blossom wrote:I wish she would give up after all her meddling with the first film. I really dread what they'd do to the final movie. I'd like to see them give it to someone else who can start again from scratch.

I really don't understand why so many fans of the books dislike the movie. Sure, they moved some of the events around and moved the ending to the next movie (if it's made), but you have to expect changes. Books and movies are two completely different mediums, what works in one might be bad in the other. And it's not like they changed the main story...

Anyway, good article. Really hope they make the last 2 books too.

PostPosted: **Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:56 pm**

Blossom wrote:I wish she would give up after all her meddling with the first film.

i'm sure there were many new line people who did their best for the film but i really can't trust forte after the comment about the insignificance of theme in a story like HDM.

PostPosted: **Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:03 pm**

Blossom wrote:I wish she would give up after all her meddling with the first film.

To be fair, everyone was commendably honest about how they were toning down TGC in order to finance much more faithful sequels. They didn't have to be so upfront, particularly as such comments were used by anti-HDM Christians. Take this Christian review:

Weitz tiptoes around Pullmanâ€™s mean-spirited caricature of Christianity, toning down the bigotry for the sake of box office dollars. Thatâ€™s not a speculation â€” that is what he specifically claims in interviews. He wants this film to be a success so that he can adapt the sequels as faithfully as possible. So brace yourselves for the next two stories, which turn the deceit and devilry up to â€œ11.â€

http://lookingclosermovies.wordpress.co ... pass-2007/

Stuff like that couldn't have helped New Line's "it's okay, let's all get along while you pay us $10" message.

So, before we condemn Forte et. al. on the sequels, let's see if they stick to their promises of more faithful TSK/TASes.

PostPosted: **Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:07 pm**

sfsraffie wrote:
Blossom wrote:I wish she would give up after all her meddling with the first film.

To be fair, everyone was commendably honest about how they were toning down TGC in order to finance much more faithful sequels. They didn't have to be so upfront, particularly as such comments were used by anti-HDM Christians.

i don't think that's the meddling we're talking about. most of us were aware that things would be compromised in that arena (although the article indicates that overseas distributors were much more effective at negotiating this potential problems). the meddling that probably messed the film's delivery most was that of post-production changes the screenplay, including rearranging bolvangar and cutting out the last three chapters.

PostPosted: **Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:25 pm**

Redzin wrote:I really don't understand why so many fans of the books dislike the movie. Sure, they moved some of the events around and moved the ending to the next movie (if it's made), but you have to expect changes. Books and movies are two completely different mediums, what works in one might be bad in the other.

But the cuts they made to the film don't work: Golden Compass is only half a film! And happy Hollywood endings have no place in His Dark Materials.

PostPosted: **Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:30 pm**

jessia wrote:the meddling that probably messed the film's delivery most was that of post-production changes the screenplay, including rearranging bolvangar and cutting out the last three chapters.

I was referring to meddling that made TGC more commercial-friendly, whether on the religion question or that of the story's harsher moments. The ending was cut for the same reason the Church stuff was (sort of) obscured - profitability, and they were honest about that. Keeping the ending in might have resulted in better reviews and fan word of mouth, but I'm not at all sure that it made a significant dent in US receipts. Heck, it might well have made money. We'll never know for sure.

The Svalbard/Bolvangar switch was, I think, necessitated by cutting the ending. It just wouldn't have worked for those unfamiliar with the books to end the story with a bear fight that the heroine watches from the sidelines, with neither Craig nor Kidman around. I think that the reviews would have been even worse, and the box office also, had they not switched this.

Midnighttosix wrote:But the cuts they made to the film don't work: Golden Compass is only half a film! And happy Hollywood endings have no place in His Dark Materials.

As producer, Forte's job was to make money. The artistic stuff was Weitz' domain. We can't know if the cuts "worked" in the producing sense, until we cut a window into a world in which an uncorrupted TGC was released.

Again, TGC's goal was to make enough dough to finance the sequels. If you want to argue that they should have ignored financial prospects, made the best movie they could and let the chips fall where they may, that's a perfectly defensible position. But the producers took a different track, and theirs was defensible also. As Orwell wrote:

"Libel accomplishes nothing."

PostPosted: **Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:01 am**

jessia wrote:
sfsraffie wrote:
Blossom wrote:I wish she would give up after all her meddling with the first film.

To be fair, everyone was commendably honest about how they were toning down TGC in order to finance much more faithful sequels. They didn't have to be so upfront, particularly as such comments were used by anti-HDM Christians.

i don't think that's the meddling we're talking about. most of us were aware that things would be compromised in that arena (although the article indicates that overseas distributors were much more effective at negotiating this potential problems). the meddling that probably messed the film's delivery most was that of post-production changes the screenplay, including rearranging bolvangar and cutting out the last three chapters.

Yup, that's the meddling I was talking about. I don't have any problems with making necessary changes to bring a books to film successfully, my problem with the movie is that it was just bad.

PostPosted: **Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:19 am**

jessia wrote:
Blossom wrote:I wish she would give up after all her meddling with the first film.

i'm sure there were many new line people who did their best for the film but i really can't trust forte after the comment about the insignificance of theme in a story like HDM.

What was her exact comment again, Jess?

It's strange, she has spent ten years trying to get these movies made, you have to assume that she cares about the trilogy...unless she has always seen it as a potential cash cow.

I'm glad that she is determined to make the sequels, however unlikely it seems, but I wonder if her determination is based on her devotion to the trilogy or simply to the fact that since she has invested so much into the franchise she feels the need to save face.

PostPosted: **Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:30 am**

Mockingbird wrote:
jessia wrote:
Blossom wrote:I wish she would give up after all her meddling with the first film.

i'm sure there were many new line people who did their best for the film but i really can't trust forte after the comment about the insignificance of theme in a story like HDM.

What was her exact comment again, Jess?

i can't be sure, i don't have the recording (press conference), but it was along the lines of "the theme isn't important."

PostPosted: **Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:46 am**

jessia wrote:
Mockingbird wrote:
jessia wrote:
Blossom wrote:I wish she would give up after all her meddling with the first film.

i'm sure there were many new line people who did their best for the film but i really can't trust forte after the comment about the insignificance of theme in a story like HDM.

What was her exact comment again, Jess?

i can't be sure, i don't have the recording (press conference), but it was along the lines of "the theme isn't important."

I did a quick google search but couldn't find any quote like that (although I remember her saying it as well). She does however mention in various articles that she's never had anyone come up to her and tell her that the reason they like the books is because of the treatment of religion (the "so therefore it's not important" is left unsaid).

However, I do hope she manages to get the second and third films made - even if it's only so I can see Dakota continue to play Lyra - if the sequels don't get made, I'd hate to waste to such a brilliant cast. They really should be playing these roles (especailly Dakota, and I want to see Craig and Kidman given more to do).

PostPosted: **Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:00 am**

Blossom wrote:I wish she would give up after all her meddling with the first film. I really dread what they'd do to the final movie. I'd like to see them give it to someone else who can start again from scratch.

Since when was it Deborah Forte's fault? It was the executives like Bob Shaye who made the changes. Look up all the producer's...there's a ton of them. Deborah Forte did not have full control over the project. I'm inclined to think she was not the problem since the film actually got shot properly and was only raped after the fact. If she had wanted those changes, they would've been made long before filming ever began.

And as far as the theme/religion thing...Pullman's said basically the same thing, so...?

PostPosted: **Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:21 am**

Gabrobot wrote:
Blossom wrote:I wish she would give up after all her meddling with the first film. I really dread what they'd do to the final movie. I'd like to see them give it to someone else who can start again from scratch.

Since when was it Deborah Forte's fault? It was the executives like Bob Shaye who made the changes. Look up all the producer's...there's a ton of them. Deborah Forte did not have full control over the project. I'm inclined to think she was not the problem since the film actually got shot properly and was only raped after the fact. If she had wanted those changes, they would've been made long before filming ever began.

I never said she was the only one at fault. And obviously they didn't have problems before filming began, it was only after the disasterous test screening that they made all the dreadful editing decisions. And these people are suposed to be professional movie makers...

PostPosted: **Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:03 am**

Blossom wrote:I never said she was the only one at fault. And obviously they didn't have problems before filming began, it was only after the disasterous test screening that they made all the dreadful editing decisions. And these people are suposed to be professional movie makers...

Well, it's just that we have insiders who pointed their finger at Bob Shaye which makes sense given his poor handling of the whole Peter Jackson/Hobbit thing as well as his recent firing. Deborah Forte seems to be the reason anything good came of the movie. It seems petty to dump blame on her when there's no evidence that she was responsible.

The changes were clearly made by executives who were previously unaware of The Golden Compass. They started paying attention to it in detail after its budget started rising and the release got nearer. They got scared and made decisions they should have stayed out of. You can thank them for the poor marketing direction as well...they should have left it to people like Deborah Forte who actually understood the project.

PostPosted: **Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:55 am**

Blossom wrote:...my problem with the movie is that it was just bad.

Redzin wrote:I really don't understand why so many fans of the books dislike the movie.

Redzin has a point. Fans' vendetta against the movie adaptation has been more spiteful than The Catholic League. The "I hate the film 100%" comments from fans are more negative than the publications coming out of the freakin Vatican here. Put it into perspective: The Golden Compass is a better Hollywoodian adaptation than most.

Gabrobot wrote:
Blossom wrote:I wish she would give up after all her meddling with the first film. I really dread what they'd do to the final movie. I'd like to see them give it to someone else who can start again from scratch.
Since when was it Deborah Forte's fault? It was the executives like Bob Shaye who made the changes. Look up all the producer's...there's a ton of them. Deborah Forte did not have full control over the project. I'm inclined to think she was not the problem since the film actually got shot properly and was only raped after the fact. If she had wanted those changes, they would've been made long before filming ever began.

...we have insiders who pointed their finger at Bob Shaye which makes sense given his poor handling of the whole Peter Jackson/Hobbit thing as well as his recent firing. Deborah Forte seems to be the reason anything good came of the movie. It seems petty to dump blame on her when there's no evidence that she was responsible.

The changes were clearly made by executives who were previously unaware of The Golden Compass. They started paying attention to it in detail after its budget started rising and the release got nearer. They got scared and made decisions they should have stayed out of. You can thank them for the poor marketing direction as well...they should have left it to people like Deborah Forte who actually understood the project.

Exactly! As far as I've read, Forte met with Philip Pullman before the trilogy was finished and before it became an international bestseller. She seems genuinely interested in the books, and she has been instrumental at getting this project made into a big-budgeted feature film for ten years. The most deleterious "producer" decisions were clearly made by the other studio executives. By the time the test audiences rolled around, I don't think Weitz or Forte had much creative control left.

Not to say that she isn't responsible for some of the changes, but frankly she's shown dedication to the project -- unlike her studio colleagues -- and from what we've seen of her she deserves the benefit of the doubt.

PostPosted: **Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:21 am**

namster wrote:
Blossom wrote:...my problem with the movie is that it was just bad.

Redzin wrote:I really don't understand why so many fans of the books dislike the movie.

Redzin has a point. Fans' vendetta against the movie adaptation has been more spiteful than The Catholic League. The "I hate the film 100%" comments from fans are more negative than the publications coming out of the freakin Vatican here. Put it into perspective: The Golden Compass is a better Hollywoodian adaptation than most.

I don't think she was saying all that--and in the same vein, as fans, some of us defend the movie more than it deserves. I found it a frustrating movie with much that was bad and much that was shiningly good, but I definitely think it's time we stopped giving Hollywood the "Oh well, it's a Hollywood adaptation, what can you do?" pass. The usual "Hollywoodian" urges are what ruined a movie that had the makings of something rather special.

I would have 100% faith in Deborah Forte if it weren't for that shady comment of hers, but again, maybe she was just trying to save face by appeasing the rabid detractors. I think that her devotion must be considered a good thing in the end; it really wasn't enough of a financial success for her to want to make the sequels just for monetary reasons.

PostPosted: **Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:25 am**

Midnighttosix wrote:
Redzin wrote:I really don't understand why so many fans of the books dislike the movie. Sure, they moved some of the events around and moved the ending to the next movie (if it's made), but you have to expect changes. Books and movies are two completely different mediums, what works in one might be bad in the other.

But the cuts they made to the film don't work: Golden Compass is only half a film! And happy Hollywood endings have no place in His Dark Materials.

I think you've hit the nail in your last sentence.

namster wrote:Redzin has a point. Fans' vendetta against the movie adaptation has been more spiteful than The Catholic League. The "I hate the film 100%" comments from fans are more negative than the publications coming out of the freakin Vatican here. Put it into perspective: The Golden Compass is a better Hollywoodian adaptation than most.

Actually I think that 95% of the book fans here have been very kind to the movie and to Weitz specifically. I've seen few truly negative comments here. Rossie has been away from this part of the boards for months, and I've mostly shown scepticism about the sequels, but haven't made any overt comment against TGC, which I consider a good movie. Not extraordinary, but good. Certainly much better than what we've been seeing from Harry Potter recently.

PostPosted: **Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:37 am**

Midnighttosix wrote:
Redzin wrote:I really don't understand why so many fans of the books dislike the movie. Sure, they moved some of the events around and moved the ending to the next movie (if it's made), but you have to expect changes. Books and movies are two completely different mediums, what works in one might be bad in the other.

But the cuts they made to the film don't work: Golden Compass is only half a film! And happy Hollywood endings have no place in His Dark Materials.

I think you've hit the nail in your last sentence.

namster wrote:Redzin has a point. Fans' vendetta against the movie adaptation has been more spiteful than The Catholic League. The "I hate the film 100%" comments from fans are more negative than the publications coming out of the freakin Vatican here. Put it into perspective: The Golden Compass is a better Hollywoodian adaptation than most.

Actually I think that 95% of the book fans here have been very kind to the movie and to Weitz specifically. I've seen few truly negative comments here. Rossie has been away from this part of the boards for months, and I've mostly shown scepticism about the sequels, but haven't made any overt comment against TGC, which I consider a good movie. Not extraordinary, but good. Certainly much better than what we've been seeing from Harry Potter recently.

PostPosted: **Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:21 am**

New Line's foreign distribs would certainly snap up the sequels, if offered. If Warner gives the greenlight, the overseas indies won't get a look-in, but should Warner put the rest of the trilogy into turnaround, there's a ready-made independent market for the pics.

Am I the only one who doesn't want Warner to make the rest of the trilogy? At least, not after those awful Plodder movies (with the exception of Azkaban). They'll put a time limit of under two hours for the remaining HDM flicks and they'll certainly love Peter Honess' editing... :sick:

Heck, they might even mistake directors and give the movies to the other Chris - you know, the one whose ancestors first discovered America. :sick:

A turnaround and a bunch of foreign investors might be the best thing that could happen to the rest of this series, IMO.

The Republic of Heaven

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