Temptation

[King Ogunwe]

i answered a legitimate question...

you answered a legitimate question twice, then added another pointless comment...

[Pyr]

who?

[Will]

Random Guy... who else?

[Final.Hippie]

Ert?
I was almost certain that the temptation was choosing which window should be kept open, the one from the land of the dead or one between Will and Lyra's worlds. The reason that the reformation of heaven depended on that was that if the land of the dead remained the place where dead people went then they couldn't escape into the air and make the republic of heaven like Lyra said she would when she died, and peopole would suffer like the old authority wanted them to. It was confusing how Mary was the snake, probably because she told them all about how wonderful love is, and started the whole thing I guess?

[AySz88]

Yeah, the whole point of it I think is the retelling of Eve's fall in a positive light.

[Carina]

I think that this time there were several temptations
The first being their feelings for one another with mary as the snake.
The second being what window (their love as a snake)

[jessia]

the tempting was malone telling them the marzipan story, which helped them to realise they were in love. the temptation was to keep their window open, instead of the dead's, but they resisted, in order to uphold the republic of heaven in their worlds.

[AySz88]

I agree that the tempting would be the marzipan story, but that would mean them falling in love was the "temptation". They had to fail the temptation (in the eyes of the Church, at least) to save the Dust...like Eve failed the first temptation.

[jessia]

o yea, lyra had to be the second eve and fall into her temptation.

the first falling-into-temptation was eating from the tree and gaining conciousness, which probably created a surge of dust to come down onto her, just as will and lyra had happened to them. so was lyra's conciousness discovering that she was in love?

[Pyr]

yes.

[Carina]

So the church would have considered Lyra's falling in love with Will a sin???

[AySz88]

Yeah...in the sense that it's original sin...I think?

[eloquent]

Remember they don't really know the facts, just some prophecies and a few bits from the alethiometer. Also they have a different perspective, and from their point of view, Dust is sin. Will and Lyra falling in love was the original sin, because all subsequent sin (Dust) stemmed from that (Will and Lyra stopped the Dust from leaking away). That is why they tried so hard to stop the 'temptation' from occurring.

[jessia]

it wasn't just the fact that they were falling in love, it was that lyra was the second eve. that's why the magisterium was so concerned about the child, because they knew that very important prophecies existed about the child coulter described as concieved in sin and born in shame. the circumstances of her birth and other factors (like her picking the right cloud pine at the witch consul) proved that she was indeed the second eve.

[eloquent]

But Eve's (Lyra's) actual fall was falling in love with Will, and in so doing ensuring that Dust (sin) remained, allowing sentient beings freedom of choice. They thought that by killing Lyra they could purge the worlds of what they thought was sin.

[jessia]

exactly.

[LadySylvia]

they fell in love and were concious of their feelings. in the garden of eden, they ate the apple and were concious of their sins.

Is eating the apple supposed to be about facing sexual awareness only?

Since the apple is considered a symbol of wisdom in certain Pagan religions, I thought that Adam and Eve biting the apple meant exercising their free will to learn more wisdom and question authorities

[Bellerophon]

they fell in love and were concious of their feelings. in the garden of eden, they ate the apple and were concious of their sins.

Is eating the apple supposed to be about facing sexual awareness only?

Since the apple is considered a symbol of wisdom in certain Pagan religions, I thought that Adam and Eve biting the apple meant exercising their free will to learn more wisdom and question authorities

The fruit of the Tree of Knowledge was not necessarily an apple (it's ambiguous in Genesis and Paradise Lost). Consumption of the fruit certainly precipitated sexual awareness, but I think its fundamental effect was to cause Adam and Eve to experience the world for the first time from their own perspectives rather than through God and his intentions.

But Eve's (Lyra's) actual fall was falling in love with Will, and in so doing ensuring that Dust (sin) remained, allowing sentient beings freedom of choice.

This is correct, but isn't precise in my opinion. Milton strongly implies that Adam and Eve were in love before the Fall and that they even engaged in sexual intercourse. But their love was platonic, and they were intimate only insofar as it was obligatory ('be fruitful' and so forth). The Fall occurs when they act on a physical attraction that wasn't present before. They touch not to fulfill an obligation imposed by God, but rather because it feels right to them (see above).

[Moral_Compass]

The serpent says something along the lines of "eat the fruit, its so good, and god is keeping it all to himself because its so good and he is just being mean and petty, why shouldnt you try it, why should he get to keep something so good all to himself etc etc" right? So I guess Mary telling that story about love and marzipan is tempting Lyra, giving her realisation into her deepest wants, telling her to act on them.

and, she does. which is where she is eve again and fails the test again? and thus creates dust and all is well with the world...?

the way I see it, if the test was to do with the windows, they passed the test, didnt succumb to temptation which wouldnt make sense? I'm getting very confused... Im thinking its more to do with Lyra's realisation of her feelings and longing for Will in more than just a "friendship sort of way" and her acting on that and creating Dust again must be the fall of Eve again than to do with the windows. That was a sore test of their resolve towards the creation and maintaining of the Republic of Heaven, in a way perpetuating Asriel's wishes (had to put him in here somewhere, favourite character and all )

damn, started thinking about that ending again and now im all depressed and sad
man this is an old thread... why did it take me so long to discover these books!!!

[LadySylvia]

So the entire saga hinged upon Lyra and Will facing their feelings for one another?