Will and Lyra... meet again?

[maija]

I really don't think they'll get back together when they live. PP has said it won't happen. But in TAS Xaphania said something like they could learn to move to another worlds like angels do, but it would take a loooong time to learn it.

[adiam21]

What? English Please.

The first sentence or what do you mean??

[Tankian]

I am sick of people wanting a loophole. But if you want one, how 'bout this:

A few years after the events Lyra meets the parallel Will of her world and they hit it off and have a long happy life together. Meanwhile Will meets the parallel Lyra of his world and they hit it off, have a long happy life together.

There you go, I just solved your big tragedy.

(I have the movie Jet Li's The One to thank for that. Anyone who has seen that movie will know what I mean. Basically about parallel universes too, a parallel version of Jet Li's character comes to his universe and kills his wife. Jet Li gets the parallel guy sent to a inter-universal prison and he gets sent to another universe. When he gets there he goes into a vet and sees a parallel version of his wife. She looks real happy to see him and says, "Have we met?" And the movie ends with big smiles on their faces.)

[Dalek-Sec]

I found a loophole

Xaphania: we will deal with the spectres

she said angels could kill spectres!!

[The Funny Man]

I just don't understand how they can only have one window open, while the worlds still exist with dust after hundreds, or thousands of years with open windows. The math just doesn't add up. But I know they can't have a loophole, because it would destroy the entire story. They have to live seperatly because they have to build the Republic of Heaven were they are.

[Jaya]

I just don't understand how they can only have one window open, while the worlds still exist with dust after hundreds, or thousands of years with open windows.

No, the Subtle Knife was only created about 200(?) years ago, and that's when windows started being created.

[The Funny Man]

No, the Subtle Knife was only created about 200(?) years ago, and that's when windows started being created.

Wrong!

Article 1: It was 300 years ago. Not important though.

Article 2: Will mentions when he's arguing with Xaphenia that there are other windows that were made before, and/or without the knife. But even without those, the windows the knife opened are everywhere. If those have been opened for hundreds of years, and Dust still exists, I think 1 permanant window and one temporary window would be easy enough.

Sorry angelofboox. Love ya, but I had to school ya.

[Mr Anderson]

Article 2: Will mentions when he's arguing with Xaphenia that there are other windows that were made before, and/or without the knife. But even without those, the windows the knife opened are everywhere. If those have been opened for hundreds of years, and Dust still exists, I think 1 permanant window and one temporary window would be easy enough.

Sorry angelofboox. Love ya, but I had to school ya.

Then Xaphenia also says
"Dust is not a constant. There's not a fixed quantity that has always been the same. Conscious beings make Dust - they renew it all the time, by thinking and feeling and reflecting, by gaining wisdom and passing it on.
"And if you help everyone else in your worlds to do that, by helping them to learn and understand about themselves and each other and the way everything works, and by showing them how to be kind instead of cruel, and patient instead of hasty, and cheerful instead of surly, and above all how to keep their minds open and free and curious... Then they will renew enough to replace what is lost through one window. So there could be one left open."

Only one. Think of the maths, by adding a second window you are doubling the amount of Dust lost.

You could argue they would not keep a second window open, just open one every few years to go back and fourth. Now think of the hurt this would cause, as each one creates a spectre. Do you think the Angels would be able to find it and 'deal with it' before it kills someone? I don't think so

I ask you to stop trying to find a loophole in this, Pullman never intended there to be one, and if by vain determination you finally find one, it will be unintended and Pullman would wish to correct it for a loophole would undermine the end.

When Will and Lyra are young, whenever they have a decision to make, they just consult the Alethiometer. But there comes that crucial point, where Lyra can no longer read it, where they have to make their own decisions. This is very much about becoming an adult, getting away from all external guidance, standing on your own two feet and deciding for yourself.
They choose as responsible people to put the greater good before their own feelings. Their experience of love gives them a glimpse of the type of happiness possible for all humans in the world, and which can one day come to them again, this time with people from their own worlds.

"We have to build a Republic of Heaven where we are, because for us there is no elsewhere."
- John Parry

[The Funny Man]

I'm not trying to find a loophole. I'm just looking for an explanation. I know that you double the amount lost if you open a second window. What I'm saying is that there have been thousands of windows left open, but were still concious. I think that they could have had the second open until one of them died. But they couldn't have done that anyway, because of your John Parry quote. I'm looking at it from a mathmatical point of view.

[Jasconius]

Hey,

Remember me?
I joined in 2005 and I said that I've found a backdoor - Or, not even a backdoor, a lot of giant errors.

Sorry, I just forgot about it.
But an hour ago, I read the end of the amber spyglass - And now I remember it all.

I was just thinking about this book, read this thread and Funny Man - That's exactly my point.
The end is just ~*bullpineapples*~.

1. The big window to the world of the dead creates a flow of dust that is giant (Mary found it out, remember?!). So it has to do with the size of the window - And you just can't tell me that, if you open a little window between the worlds of Lyra and Will, the amount of dust would be doubled - That's just wrong.

2. Thousand windows -> After ~200 years, there is a lot of dust gone, let's say 90% (and I think that's far to high, maybe 60%).
One big window -> A lot of dust gone
And a little window more -> A lot of dust gone... NO, STOP, ONLY A BIT DUST LOST.
That's just wrong!
Again, you can't tell me that this is to much - It would be maybe 1% more (if you compare it with the dust lost by the big hole).

3.

Do you think the Angels would be able to find it and 'deal with it' before it kills someone? I don't think so

Near the end, an angel asked Will to open a window.
"And the spector?"
Angel: "We will take care of it" (Or something like this, I have the german edition.
They ARE able to deal with the spectors, no question about it.


Guys, these two kids just saved the world.
You can't say that the angels could not help them every 10 years, can you?

Pullman wanted an unhappy end.
But this end is not logical at all, and that's the biggest weekness of this book.
So in fact, you can just throw away the end of it and make a new

[Mr Anderson]

Oh god not another one. I really can't be bothered to argue your logic (which is flawed) because logic is not the point here.

I ask you to stop trying to find a loophole in this, Pullman never intended there to be one, and if by vain determination you finally find one, it will be unintended and Pullman would wish to correct it for a loophole would undermine the end.

Read the last part of my post. It is not an unhappy ending it is a meaningful, deep, emotional, memorable and philosophically magnificent ending. Please appreciate it, remember it, and get on with your life..

[Somewhat]

Read the last part of my post. It is not an unhappy ending it is a meaningful, deep, emotional, memorable and philosophically magnificent ending. Please appreciate it, remember it, and get on with your life..

*Hugs*

[DutchCrunch]

Jasconius: Did you at all understand the point of that ending? Do you not, after rereading, get the emotion and mostly the underlying theme that everyone has a place where they belong and can strive to do their best to help others? It is about personal sacrifice. And yes, it is sad.
Maybe you cried yourself to sleep trying to think of loopholes, but there are none. Enjoy the ending as it is.

[Jasconius]

Oh god not another one. I really can't be bothered to argue your logic (which is flawed) because logic is not the point here.

Each fantasy book has a logic, and much of the book is based on that logic.
It has all to do with logic and nothing with what Pullman wants to tell in his book. You just can't write a book, include logic and physic (what dust is is logically analysed, for example), so don't tell me I don't know about what it is about) and then break this logic only because you want to make an end with a message or whatever.

Did you at all understand the point of that ending?

Yes, thank you.

Maybe you cried yourself to sleep trying to think of loopholes, but there are none. Enjoy the ending as it is.

Read my first post please.
They're not just a lot of loopholes, Pullman breaks his own logic on which much of the book is based to make a sad end.
And they is nothing to enjoy about.

If Pullman isn't able to write a book correctly, he is nothing but a bad autor (not completely bad, guys, so don't kill me please; he is just not good in writing ends).

I ask you to stop trying to find a loophole in this, Pullman never intended there to be one

LOL!
He even says there is a way for angels to travel between worlds and that maybe the two would be able to learn it.

Nothing against a sad end, but in a book with so much logic (at least in the first and the second) you can't start to change your mood in the middle of the story and say:
"Uhm hey, I wanted to include a message in this book, and I even did, but I wanted the end to be sad... ok, I change my write style and put in an end that is not compatible with most of my book."
Oh well, at least now the message is clear to everyone!"

He just plays with the reader.
I read the first two books, and a logic is created, and practically all the book is based on it (traveling between worlds usw.).
Again: You can't just break it just because you want a sad end.
You could let a big disaster happen that changes the laws of physic or closes all the windows or do something like that, and it would be ok, but this end is just terrible. That's all.

But hey, you don't really seem to care about that.
Let me point this out: I'm a big fan of his books, his critic about the church is fantastic and the story is, too.
But to me it seams like he was to lazy to make an end that let the book end with dignity, an end with the quality of the complete story of the book.
But that's not a "quality end", that's just an end from an autor who had no idea what he could say in the ending.


OK, I'm finished.
Now bash me *gulp*

[Peter]

OK, I'm finished.
Now bash me *gulp*

No point.

[DutchCrunch]

If Pullman isn't able to write a book correctly, he is nothing but a bad autor (not completely bad, guys, so don't kill me please; he is just not good in writing ends).

You are kidding, right? Have you read any of his books? Bad endings, really?. Are we talking TGC (NL), TSK, White Mercedes, Broken Bridge, Sally?

If someone who had actually read good books and endings had said this, I might just have been pissed off.

[Jez]

You know, even supposing that Jasconius is right and Will and Lyra could have left open a temporary window for themselves without destroying too much Dust... Such a loophole is not really a loophole, it's a bad decision. It's selfish, it's putting their relationship before the well-being of every other person in all the universes.

You might think it wouldn't cause too much harm - it's only one little window after all... but think of the consequences. Will and Lyra wouldn't be able to live full lives in their own worlds like they're supposed to. And one can only imagine the complications if they had children. What world would their children belong to? It's likely that the window would have to remain open for longer than their lifespans because of their families and the connections that would undoubtedly be made between people in the two worlds.

It's dangerous as well. The knife is dangerous if it falls into the wrong hands. There's also the risk of other people discovering the window.

I think Will and Lyra realised that they had to stop this now. By staying together they would continue to harm the universe. Separating was tough but it was the right decision. They had to put the welfare of the universe above themselves. In order to live a good, full life, they had to be apart.

I think that Lyra and Will choosing to stay together (a screw-the-universe attitude, we're in love and that's what counts) would be a bad ending. Not only because it would be less powerful, but also because it would lower my opinion of the characters.

[Mr Anderson]

Yes I believe Jez says it best. Perhaps Lyra was selfish at the beginning of book one, but she is no longer. Both children realise that they cannot put their love before the well being of the rest of existence.

Each fantasy book has a logic, and much of the book is based on that logic.
It has all to do with logic and nothing with what Pullman wants to tell in his book. You just can't write a book, include logic and physic (what dust is is logically analysed, for example), so don't tell me I don't know about what it is about) and then break this logic only because you want to make an end with a message or whatever.

Their parting is perfectly justified in a logical sense. The reasoning behind which I am sure you are aware of. Your only loophole is the fact that they could create a hole every so often to pop back and forth. Jez above made some logical and wholly true points about why this is a morally incorrect decision.

Now, your argument is, when Will is told that the Spectre will be 'dealt with' before he creates the last window, why can't the angels deal with them all the time?

I'll tell you why. In that very sentence, Xaphania does not say that it will be 'dealt with' before it Kills someone. She allows Will to make the window because she could not rightly refuse Lyra a passage home could she? That would be condeming Lyra to a slow death. After all, she did just save the world.

Better a chance to save one life, that to save none at all. And there you have it.

Read my first post please.
They're not just a lot of loopholes, Pullman breaks his own logic on which much of the book is based to make a sad end.
And they is nothing to enjoy about.

Please point out where he breaks his own logic. Because as far as I can see the ending is set up immaculately, through all three Novels.

[DutchCrunch]

Because as far as I can see the ending is set up immaculately, through all three Novels.

I agree. Though I wouldn't go as far as to capitalize Novels. Should we now also call Mr Pullman He or Him?

[Jasconius]

Jez:
You've got a points.
It is true that it may be the right decision, but he could write these reasons in the book instead of using an unlogic end.

Mr Anderson:
Good point, too.
But think about the possibility of a little hole - Of course, it would be difficult for the two, but maybe this is the best decision: The "big first love" often ends quickly, so it would be best to let this window open - Or at least, the book would not break it's logic (for the reason I pointed out), if they open a little window for the two, and maybe they would only need them for 5 years or so.
That's my problem with the logic: This second-window-thing.
He has to write that this is a posibility, or to say why it's not, or he breaks it - Just my 2 Cents

Have you read any of his books?

Nope, I only figured this out based on my theories, keep cool my friend

And I can't write much more - In a few minutes I will have an latin classroom test (classroom test?! ok, babelfish says this ^^).