The Republic of Heaven

Do you think Mrs.Coulter deserved to die?

Discuss the concluding book of the trilogy

Do you think Mrs. Coulter should have died?

Yes
39
51%
No
38
49%
 
Total votes : 77

Re: hey

Postby Lera » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:18 pm

Donny wrote::o I think Mrs Coulter is the most interesting, admirable and complex character. I love her, i don't think she deserved to die, but i like the way she is dead. maybe it is better like that because i can't imagine her, lord asriel and lyra like a family
She did very bad actions but she decided to sacrifice for Lyra, she felt sorry she knew she was a bad mother :( I had tear in my eye when she sacrificed with Lord Asriel it was sad :( but her death was necessary it was the charm of her character


I FULLY agree with you :)
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Re: Do you think Mrs.Coulter deserved to die?

Postby tyche » Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:24 pm

I picked yes, i love Mrs Coulter, she totally redeemed herself in TAS but her death was necessary for her redemption it just doesn't have the same impact otherwise.
I don't really think 'deserved' is the right word though. It's kind of meaningless. Who on earth has the right to decide that kind of thing?

Also surely betraying Metatron was her finest moment?
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Re: Do you think Mrs.Coulter deserved to die?

Postby MojaveByrd » Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:58 am

tyche wrote:I picked yes, i love Mrs Coulter, she totally redeemed herself in TAS but her death was necessary for her redemption it just doesn't have the same impact otherwise.


Is there really any such thing as "redemption" in this world now knowing that there is no heaven or hell? Does it really matter?
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Re: Do you think Mrs.Coulter deserved to die?

Postby Peter » Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:22 am

MojaveByrd wrote:
tyche wrote:I picked yes, i love Mrs Coulter, she totally redeemed herself in TAS but her death was necessary for her redemption it just doesn't have the same impact otherwise.


Is there really any such thing as "redemption" in this world now knowing that there is no heaven or hell? Does it really matter?


Yes, I think there is. Mrs Coulter's death, and the good she did with it, restored the balance of her life. In that sense, she redeemed herself. People in the future who look back on her life will acknowledge that, although she did some bad things, in the end she was an overall force for good.

The concept of personal redemption is tied up with the values of religion; and we know that HDM rejects those values in favour of enlightened humanism. In that sense - and that sense only - perhaps it doesn't matter. Just remember that Marisa Coulter's sacrifice was not driven by any religious motivation.
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Re: Do you think Mrs.Coulter deserved to die?

Postby Lera » Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:51 pm

I don't think that Marisa's death redeemed all her previous life. There were too much bad deeds in her life. And if you remember, she and Asriel killed Metatron for Lyra's happyness, but not for all people. Maybe I am not right, but It's my oppinion. I didn't think about Asriel, but Marisa, to my mind, was too cruelty (and it made her such glamorous and interesting character 8) ) and the way of her death isn't the reason to consider that she became kind and all people she had killed could forgive her...
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Re: Do you think Mrs.Coulter deserved to die?

Postby tyche » Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:30 am

Peter wrote:
MojaveByrd wrote:
tyche wrote:I picked yes, i love Mrs Coulter, she totally redeemed herself in TAS but her death was necessary for her redemption it just doesn't have the same impact otherwise.


Is there really any such thing as "redemption" in this world now knowing that there is no heaven or hell? Does it really matter?


Yes, I think there is. Mrs Coulter's death, and the good she did with it, restored the balance of her life. In that sense, she redeemed herself. People in the future who look back on her life will acknowledge that, although she did some bad things, in the end she was an overall force for good.

The concept of personal redemption is tied up with the values of religion; and we know that HDM rejects those values in favour of enlightened humanism. In that sense - and that sense only - perhaps it doesn't matter. Just remember that Marisa Coulter's sacrifice was not driven by any religious motivation.


Yeah i don't mean redemption in a religious sense. Just that she made up for all the bad deeds in her life with her final good one.
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Re: Do you think Mrs.Coulter deserved to die?

Postby Lera » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:18 am

Marisa was a "cold" woman and her cruelty was alluring. At first I liked her only for her such unusual character. She was an ideal woman for me - strong and independent. And Marisa's death made me respect her for a beautiful part of her charater too. She died for her child's life. I think such death was something like an "excuse" for her being a bad mother. :roll:
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Re: Do you think Mrs.Coulter deserved to die?

Postby Acchon » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:46 pm

To decide that someone deserves to live or not is a hard thing to do.
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Re: Do you think Mrs.Coulter deserved to die?

Postby MojaveByrd » Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:58 am

Acchon wrote:To decide that someone deserves to live or not is a hard thing to do.


Sometimes.
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Re: Do you think Mrs.Coulter deserved to die?

Postby Acchon » Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:35 pm

In this case, at least.
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Re: Do you think Mrs.Coulter deserved to die?

Postby Lera » Thu May 01, 2008 10:23 am

Acchon wrote:In this case, at least.


It's really so. It's too hard I think to express unbiased oppinion. Marisa makes us sympathize her irrespective of her last deeds. I think maybe she deserved to die like a person, but not like a mother she became.
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Re: Do you think Mrs.Coulter deserved to die?

Postby brendan_mott » Sat May 17, 2008 10:02 pm

NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!
Mrs Coulter did not deserve to die!!! Neither did Lord Asriel.
You see, if it wasn't for that damn angel then they could have married and lived together and-
-well, I won't go into that since I'm not allowed, but yes, they definitely would have...
Any of you guys who wanna read the story of what would have happened if Mrs Coulter hadn't died, check out The Happy Couple by sarahluvzu.
And I'm adding a little something on that front as well.
I hope Phillip Pullman brings them back in the book of Dust, or else I will track him down, get a hammer and smash his kneecaps in until he does so like Annie Wilks did in misery LOL.
Only joking.
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Re: Do you think Mrs.Coulter deserved to die?

Postby Ayanna » Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:03 pm

I think it was appropriate that both Mrs Coulter and Asriel died, because they sacrificed themselves for their daughter. Mrs Coulter could not have completely changed who she was, but she did love her daughter, and Asriel, so she fulfilled that by helping Asriel kill Metatron. They both leave the world and all their previous deeds behind, leaving the future in the hands of Lyra, making the world safer for her.
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Re: Do you think Mrs.Coulter deserved to die?

Postby brendan_mott » Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:37 pm

Still, it's totally unfair on them. Why should Coulter deserve to fall for eternity when she's only just found love with Asriel. I wish they could have found a way to destroy Meatatron without falling themselves into the chasm so they could live the rest of their lives together. But in the abyss they would have to put up with an angry angel 24/7 which could completely ruin their relationship because they'd spend forever fighting him instead of making out.
I think they should be resurrected asap!
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Re: Do you think Mrs.Coulter deserved to die?

Postby LLCoolDave » Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:20 am

Keep in mind that their Death, no matter if they deserve it or not, was unavoidable. It's not so much that their characters had to die but rather that the ideas and ideals they stand for had to go so the Republic of Heaven could be. Asriel and Clouter had been antagonistic to Lyra (and Will) throughout the whole story. They may be shown to care for their child, but they still act against the intentions (and purpose) of Lyra and Will all the time. There is no room for this kind of happy end in this story.

One may however argue whether they deserve to fall for all eternity or not.
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Re: Do you think Mrs.Coulter deserved to die?

Postby brendan_mott » Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:20 pm

Anyway even if they didn't escape the abyss I think that Pullman should give them some sort of happy ending in TBOD. Maybe they create their own universe and get married there or become angels andfly out. OK, I'm just stealing ideas from fanfics here, but still, they deserve a happy ending; Coulter's redeemed herself by accepting the fact that the authority is evil, Asriel accepted the fact that Lyra WAS important and dear to him. And they are the most interesting characters in the series, especially in the amber spyglass. And when they died, HDM died, so to increase popularity in the series Pullman would have to resurrect them. And anyway, if Pullman is hinting towards the fact that Will and Lyra will get their happy ending, theni's totally unfair that Marisa/Asriel don't get theirs too.
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Re: Do you think Mrs.Coulter deserved to die?

Postby Aletheia Dolorosa » Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:43 am

brendan_mott wrote:Pullman is hinting towards the fact that Will and Lyra will get their happy ending


Umm, where?

I'm of the opinion that all is fair in love, war and literature. The various 'tragic' events that make up the ending of TAS (Mrs Coulter and Lord Asriel's sacrifice, Lyra and Will's separation, the closing of the windows) serve two purposes.

The first (and most important, I believe) is to affect the readers deeply. Why do we feel such grief when the book is finished? Why do we go out and write loophole fanfics where Lyra and Will get to stay together? Precisely because their separation affects us deeply and profoundly. Would the series have such an impact on us if Pullman had written a cop-out 'All was well' (a la J.K. Rowling) ending? I don't think so.

The second reason is that Pullman wrote a trilogy about consciousness, about the change from childhood to adulthood. He was consciously attempting to write something where the change from 'innocence' to 'experience' was celebrated rather than deplored. The trilogy tracks Lyra's (and later Will's) transformation from child to adolescent. Their relationship mirrors this transformation. It is an interesting relationship in that it begins as one of 'innocence' and yet when it takes on a romantic dimension, it becomes the catalyst for their growing awareness as adolescents. (I really struggled to explain what I meant there, I hope it's clear what I'm saying.) Their relationship is both a symbol of how they've changed, and the thing that changes them. It is a metaphor for the transition from childhood to adulthood. What all this means is that their relationship serves a very specific purpose and is essential to a very specific time in both their lives. But (and this is a very complicated and difficult thing to explain, and possibly someone only I believe) in having such a relationship, they negate the need for it, because it transforms them into different people, adolescents, not children.

In creating a plot that forces Lyra and Will apart, Pullman is expressing the key element of the philosophy of HDM: you have to build the Republic of Heaven where you are, because for us, there is no elsewhere. This does not simply mean that we should focus on earthly life because there is no afterlife, but also that we must focus on our life as we are now, not on the past. Although adults contain the children that they were within them, they are different people, too. Lyra and Will understand that their relationship was extremely important to them (and continue to recognise it their whole lives, as they visit the Botanic Garden) but also understand that it was important to them AT A SPECIFIC TIME, but transformed them into people for whom that relationship might not be so important. How many people do you know who ended up marrying the people they 'dated' at 12 or 13 (or even 15 or 16)?

I'm not sure if what I'm saying is exactly coherent, but here's a summary. The 'tragic' ending of TAS was necessary because of its emotional impact and its reflection of Pullman's themes and philosophy. Letting Lyra and Will ride happily ever after off into the sunset just wouldn't have cut it.
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Re: Do you think Mrs.Coulter deserved to die?

Postby brendan_mott » Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:14 pm

In Lyra's Oxord Lyra saw a nightingale and Pan said 'expect the unexpectd or something along those lines.

I actually agree with you on the sad ending bit, but I'm not to bothered about Will and Lyra I'm more concened about Marisa and Asriel, and I think it would have been more good if they'd have lived and after the Lyra/Will separation she goes to Jordan college and Asriel is waiting there ready to take her to live with them against her will. That would be a great ending becaue then people would be able to write about how Lyra comes to forgive her parents or how Lyra ra away from them and tried to find Will. That would actually be more of a cliffhanger and in m opinion would create a stronger, more dramatic impact on the reader.
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Re: Do you think Mrs.Coulter deserved to die?

Postby Aletheia Dolorosa » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:33 am

brendan_mott wrote:I'm more concened about Marisa and Asriel, and I think it would have been more good if they'd have lived and after the Lyra/Will separation she goes to Jordan college and Asriel is waiting there ready to take her to live with them against her will. That would be a great ending becaue then people would be able to write about how Lyra comes to forgive her parents or how Lyra ra away from them and tried to find Will. That would actually be more of a cliffhanger and in m opinion would create a stronger, more dramatic impact on the reader.


Hmm, I'm inclined to disagree here. I think the point of the series is how Lyra grows up into a person who doesn't need her parents. She's always been a very independent child, and her parents are both so useless at being parents that, ultimately, the best thing they can do for their child is to, well, die. That doesn't exactly reflect well on them as parents.

It also leaves the book with a more unresolved ending. Lyra doesn't know what happened to her parents, and she'll go through life not knowing. It's an interesting contrast with Will, whose story arc is initially driven by a burning desire to find out what happened to his father. In some ways, that is the desire of a child - the yearning for an identity and the belief that such an identity must involve knowing his father's story. As an adult, Lyra doesn't need to know her parents' story to define her identity.
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Re: Do you think Mrs.Coulter deserved to die?

Postby Peter » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:43 am

brendan_mott wrote:In Lyra's Oxord Lyra saw a nightingale and Pan said 'expect the unexpectd or something along those lines.

I actually agree with you on the sad ending bit, but I'm not to bothered about Will and Lyra I'm more concened about Marisa and Asriel, and I think it would have been more good if they'd have lived and after the Lyra/Will separation she goes to Jordan college and Asriel is waiting there ready to take her to live with them against her will. That would be a great ending becaue then people would be able to write about how Lyra comes to forgive her parents or how Lyra ra away from them and tried to find Will. That would actually be more of a cliffhanger and in m opinion would create a stronger, more dramatic impact on the reader.


Write it, then...
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