Mark Reads The Amber Spyglass - with BTTS

[Aileth]

I believe Lyra will have to keep lying all her life. For one thing, she can't tell people anything about her adventures, so that's already lying about herself. She did it with the woman scholar at the end of the book. Eventually she'll create more memories of after years and can talk about that but I still think she will hide a good part of who she is. Also, given the people she may have to deal with in her path, I think plenty of lies will be the mode of operation.

Have you considered that she lives in a time when women are not allowed as much freedom as men? I don't think she'll be allowed to stop lying in that context if she wants to pursue some big career.

To brieana90: Yes, we see Balthamos again before the end. I can't remember the name of the chapter, it was after Marzipan.

[Anoria]

Wow, I hadn't considered how much Lyra would have to conceal in her later life. I'd always gotten the impression that she was cured of her compulsive dishonesty by the harpies, but it makes a lot of sense the other way. I guess she's grown up enough that she won't try to pass off fiction as fact just for the fun of it, but would still have to use her talent to keep her secrets safe. Now I wonder whether lying will come as easily to her as before, with her newfound adult perspectives and such.

So actually, I'm here to talk about the knife, in accordance with our weekly discussion topic I find it half annoying, half fascinating how Pullman incorporates science into the fantasy of the story. A knife that is so sharp it can cut the fabric of reality is a great fantasy device, sure, but the whole thing about cutting the tiniest bonds within atoms... it makes me think about science, which then makes me think about how in scientific terms it's wrong. I have a much better time suspending my disbelief when authors don't attempt to rationalize things in terms of how the real world works. Does anyone else have this problem?
(But before I get annoyed about how it can't work, I have a few minutes of fun trying to figure out how it could.)

[Peter]

I think Pullman goes astray when he tries to do SF. There's lots of stuff about the Mulefa and M-world- backstory, world-building, etc - that a more experienced SF writer would know to leave out. Likewise with the Knife. It's super-sharp, it cuts windows between the worlds, there are nasty side effects. That's all the story needs. Further explanation is not only unnecessary, it also breaks the spell he's trying to cast.

Sometimes it's better not to look behind the curtain.

[Anoria]

I don't have a lot to say about humans and daemons just yet, but after reading today's review, I want to know if anyone else has noticed Mark's repeated wishes for the earth to open up and swallow either Mrs Coulter or Lord Asriel. I get a smug little smile on my face every time I see him say something like that and I cannot wait to see his reaction to the Abyss.

[thelxiepia]

I don't have a lot to say about humans and daemons just yet, but after reading today's review, I want to know if anyone else has noticed Mark's repeated wishes for the earth to open up and swallow either Mrs Coulter or Lord Asriel. I get a smug little smile on my face every time I see him say something like that and I cannot wait to see his reaction to the Abyss.

Hahaha, I know. I can't wait for his reaction to that. YOU ARE SO NOT PREPARED, Mark. For ANYTHING.
I don't have much to say about the human/daemon stuff yet, but there will be plenty to talk about in the coming chapters of this week.

[brieana90]

Yes, we've noticed. He's been wishing for that since The Golden Compass. In another book he was reading he wanted the earth to open up and eat that antagonist and when that actually happened he was ungrateful.

[Jaya]

Okay! I'll start on the human/daemon relationship, sort of. Indirectly.

Was reading the comments on today's chapter, and people talked about Mrs Coulter's daemon having spoken (which, as far as I can recall, only happens twice in the entire trilogy). So really what I want to talk about is Mrs Coulter and her daemon. Why do we never get to see him speak? Is it just to make her even more chilling that she already is?

It's hard for me to imagine the two of them having intimate discussions like Lyra and Pan do, making decisions together, expressing their fears. Remember in NL/TGC when they made Pan look away from Lyra in the bath? Do you think their relationship is something like that? Do you think the golden monkey is made to look away from Mrs Coulter when she's naked? What does that even say about your relationship with one's soul? I suppose it's meant to teach you (or in that case...Pan/Lyra) shame? And that is, of course, one of the principle tenets of the Church. You are sinful, and you should feel shame. In fact, that's what Eve brought into the world, isn't it?

It's often been implied that Mrs Coulter and the golden monkey have witch-like abilities, in that they seem to often be further away from each other than is natural. It makes their relationship with each other also seem kind of...unnatural. I'm sure there's a thread about where it's been discussed...and Pullman himself has said he doesn't really know about it? (I don't recall, I know there's a point in NL/TGC where something like a monkey is following Lyra in the sled, but Pullman definitely said he didn't know what that was about when asked if it was the golden monkey). Perhaps Mrs Coulter simply trained herself and her daemon to be further and further apart? I wonder if that counts as some sort of self-harm.

There's also some interesting stuff to talk about regarding Mrs Coulter and Lord Asriel, and the extent to which they care for Lyra (now and previously) - but will get to that soon!

[Aileth]

It's often been implied that Mrs Coulter and the golden monkey have witch-like abilities, in that they seem to often be further away from each other than is natural. It makes their relationship with each other also seem kind of...unnatural. I'm sure there's a thread about where it's been discussed...and Pullman himself has said he doesn't really know about it? (I don't recall, I know there's a point in NL/TGC where something like a monkey is following Lyra in the sled, but Pullman definitely said he didn't know what that was about when asked if it was the golden monkey). Perhaps Mrs Coulter simply trained herself and her daemon to be further and further apart? I wonder if that counts as some sort of self-harm.

Since Pullman never explained in NL what was that was following the gyptians, I always thought it was just a spy that Lyra viewed as a monkey, and her mind went to the golden monkey with that. After that, I didn't have reason to believe the golden monkey was far away from his human in any other instances, the only place that was mentioned or intended was in NL as far as I remember. I still believe Lyra has witch blood, probably on Mrs Coulter's side. It's very possible she was born of the male line of a witch. Which brings me to the question, how much power could the male line acumulate, even if they're not witches themselves? I often wonder what would happen to girls born of interconnected male descendants of witches.

Remember in NL/TGC when they made Pan look away from Lyra in the bath? Do you think their relationship is something like that? Do you think the golden monkey is made to look away from Mrs Coulter when she's naked? What does that even say about your relationship with one's soul? I suppose it's meant to teach you (or in that case...Pan/Lyra) shame? And that is, of course, one of the principle tenets of the Church. You are sinful, and you should feel shame. In fact, that's what Eve brought into the world, isn't it?

That's actually interesting. We've been told that Mrs Coulter ascended in society by her marriage, yet we see here a behaviour bred into the higher classes. Did she learn that behaviour in her childhood, which means she comes from a well-positioned family, or was she taught that upon her marriage to fit into her new environment? I don't know about the middle classes in this world and I don't know if there's much of it either, the parts we've seen are either lower classes, traders, clergy, or higher classes, and only in the instance of high society we've seen that kind of impersonal relationship with one's daemon; everyone else we've seen always had a close bond with their daemons, unless they have to act in the higher circles. Or they're trained in a specific group for that, like the severed soldiers.

We are never told how Marisa Coulter grew up (and I want to know her maiden name as well), we're only told she's very ambitious and escalated on her own. This is important because of how she relates with the golden monkey (and I want to know his name as well; Pullman left too much out about her), if she was taught to be like that or if she and her daemon learned on their own in order to get what they wanted. In the second instance, that'd mean she has a very deep connection to her daemon, so close they don't need words to communicate their thoughts. I prefer this one because the first would mean she's just a product of her society, and she's too clever for that in my opinion.

[Anoria]

Was reading the comments on today's chapter, and people talked about Mrs Coulter's daemon having spoken (which, as far as I can recall, only happens twice in the entire trilogy). So really what I want to talk about is Mrs Coulter and her daemon. Why do we never get to see him speak? Is it just to make her even more chilling that she already is?

I think one element of it is just that a daemon's conversation is somewhat intimate. It's pointed out (right? I'm not just making things up?) in TGC when the Gyptian spy is dying that it's unusual for someone's daemon to address anyone other than their own human. Children's daemons seem to respect this rule less, which goes along with the idea that children are generally more open and trusting than adults. I don't think Serafina would send Kaisa bearing messages to just anyone, and I don't think Pan would speak so openly to any of Lyra's friends other than Will. Mrs. Coulter doesn't make friends like that, doesn't trust anyone, so the exchanges between her and the golden monkey are mostly quiet and secretive.
IMHO.

[nothing useful to say about middle part of Jaya's post]

It's often been implied that Mrs Coulter and the golden monkey have witch-like abilities, in that they seem to often be further away from each other than is natural. It makes their relationship with each other also seem kind of...unnatural. I'm sure there's a thread about where it's been discussed...and Pullman himself has said he doesn't really know about it? (I don't recall, I know there's a point in NL/TGC where something like a monkey is following Lyra in the sled, but Pullman definitely said he didn't know what that was about when asked if it was the golden monkey). Perhaps Mrs Coulter simply trained herself and her daemon to be further and further apart? I wonder if that counts as some sort of self-harm.

I always just filed that under "Mrs. Coulter must have had an interesting past." She could plausibly have found out about that wasteland in the North where the witches go, or some other equivalent from some other culture, and just decided it would be useful. Or maybe, since she was so much a part of the Church until recently, they thought learning to separate would be appropriate penance for some great sin they had committed. A lot of that kind of stuff would qualify as serious self-harm if it weren't done in the name of faith.
Actually, now I wonder if anyone else in the Church has developed this skill. If they could think of pre-emptive absolution, I'm sure some branch would have at least considered the separation as a useful tool, perhaps for spies.

[Jaya]

Well, when we learn about intercision in TGC, we learn that similar practices take place in some tribes/parts of the world.

"But whose idea was it to do that cutting in the first place?"
"It was hers. She guessed that the two things that happen at adolescence might be connected: the change in one's daemon and the fact that Dust began to settle. Perhaps if the daemon were separated from the body, we might never be subject to Dust-to original sin. The question was whether it was possible to separate daemon and body without killing the person. But she's travelled in many places, and seen all kinds of things. She's traveled in Africa, for instance.The Africans have a way of making a slave called a zombi. It has no will of its own; it will work day and night without ever running away or complaining. It looks like a corpse . . . ."
"It's a person without their daemon!"
"Exactly. So she found out that it was possible to separate them."

Mrs Coulter's life is mysterious...she's travelled in many places and seen all kinds of things. She's even written a book...

It could be that Mrs Coulter and the golden monkey are simply secretive about their relationship...but I wouldn't have put it past her to have deliberately detached herself from her soul in order to get ahead (perhaps not literally, but just figuratively). Yes, the human-daemon relationship is very private...but we've been shown Mrs Coulter alone so many times! Why have we not seen it then? And we've seen so many other characters interact with their daemons...which is why it's so alien to us. I'm sure their relationship with their daemon is just as intimate as anybody else's. Which means...Mrs Coulter's relationship with her daemon is just weird. But then, Mrs Coulter is no ordinary person...I suppose.

On today's MarkReads, Mark has finally reached the suburbs of the dead! Yay. I know it's not 'til next week, but we're fast approaching The Betrayal... the image of Pan on the jetty disappearing into the mist. I think that's possibly one of the most memorable scenes (certainly for me) and I can't imagine what it's going to do to Mark.

Then she stepped down into the boat. She was so light that it barely rocked at all. She sat beside Will, and her eyes never left Pantalaimon, who stood trembling at the shore end of the jetty; but as the boatman let go of the iron ring and swung his oars out to
pull the boat away, the little dog daemon trotted helplessly out to the very end, his claws clicking softly on the soft planks, and stood watching, just watching, as the boat drew away and the jetty faded and vanished in the mist.

[Aletheia Dolorosa]

It could be that Mrs Coulter and the golden monkey are simply secretive about their relationship...but I wouldn't have put it past her to have deliberately detached herself from her soul in order to get ahead (perhaps not literally, but just figuratively).

I think we had a thread at some point on the topic of 'Mrs Coulter and witch abilities'. I'll have a hunt around and try to find it and link to it.

The thing I find quite disturbing about Mrs Coulter and her relationship with her dæmon is that, for most people, as far as I can tell, the dæmon betrays when a human is lying. (That is, dæmons seem to act in an agitated manner when their humans' words/actions don't match with their thoughts.) With Mrs Coulter, it seems that this happens in reverse. Her dæmon is always in much more control. On several occasions, Mrs Coulter's 'knuckles turn white' when she's anxious or whatever, but the dæmon remains calm. For some reason, this reversal - that a human is more 'emotional' than his/her dæmon - is particularly chilling. I don't think it's a detachment, but rather a disconnection, though.

I know he won't get up to this chapter for a while, but I'm looking forward to Mark's reaction to Lyra and Will's liberation of the dead. He will absolutely flip out.

[Jaya]

Lyra is the true hero of this story, and someone who is just an eleven-year-old girl already understands that it is the greatest sacrifice to be willing to die in order to do what is proper and right.

Personally, I don't think that Lyra at this point does understand the sacrifice that she's going to have to make. Up to this point, she hasn't seemed to consider that to die means to lose Pan... It is Pan who is afraid of all the deaths and shrinking away from them, not Lyra. I think Pullman specifically states that it is only when the boatman says so, that she realises that she must make this ultimate sacrifice, in leaving Pan behind.

"Not him."
He extended a yellow-gray finger, pointing directly at Pantalaimon, whose red-brown stoat form immediately became ermine white.
"But he is me!" Lyra said.
"If you come, he must stay."
"But we can't! We'd die!"
"Isn't that what you want?"
And then for the first time Lyra truly realised what she was doing. This was the real consequence. She stood aghast, trembling, and clutched her dear daemon so tightly that he whimpered in pain.

In terms of Mark's opinion of Lyra, I can't say I agree. It's true, she is a heroine, and she is brave, and her lying is fantastical. But to some extent, I agree with the Chevalier Tialys...not in that she should stop being a child and stop wanting to make things right with Roger, but she is disrespectful, she is selfish, and to be honest she acts like a brat sometimes. Like I've said before, it is largely unnecessary to make up such ridiculous and superfluous stories. She does sometimes do it to protect herself and others, that's true, but her story is ridiculous and flamboyant. She enjoys telling lies and making people believe in her deception as she manipulates them in the same way that Mrs Coulter does, charming them into hanging on her every word.

The contrast between her and Will is obvious. Had Will been the one to explain themselves, I think he too would have lied, but it would have been brief, and simple. He seeks to avoid attention, while Lyra loves the attention that lying affords her...and when we get to the harpies (soon!) it's even more obvious how pointless some of her lying is.

[cjp]

On today's MarkReads, Mark has finally reached the suburbs of the dead! Yay. I know it's not 'til next week, but we're fast approaching The Betrayal... the image of Pan on the jetty disappearing into the mist. I think that's possibly one of the most memorable scenes (certainly for me) and I can't imagine what it's going to do to Mark.

HE SO EN'T PREPARED.

It's interesting timing as I've just finished my re-read of NL, and so much is invested throughout that book in the human/daemon bond. For Lyra, it is the unthinkable fear to be split from Pan. The fact that she does so of her own choice in the upcoming chapter, and yet it seems so inkeeping with her character and development, I think is a great credit to the books.

Do we know which of the two 'betrayals' is The Betrayal though? I always assumed the one that was spoken of at the beginning of NL was Roger's death, especially as that chapter was called 'The Betrayal'. I imagine PP probably didn't know exactly what he'd write several years later at the time...

I'm desparately trying to balance wanting to catch up with MarkReads for the end of TAS (I don't think I'M prepared, again!) against taking my time and only going through 2/3 chapters at a time (and enjoying Mark's thoughts on these as I go). Very painfull; I WILL catch up.

There's so much I'd forgotten/missed in the 9 years since I read NL. Lord Asriel/Mrs Coulter scene at the end? Totally forgot that.

[Jaya]

Yes, PP has said himself that that is The Betrayal. It's also stated in TAS...

Then Lyra gave a cry so passionate that even in that muffled, mist-hung world it raised an echo, but of course it wasn't an echo, it was the other part of her crying in turn from the land of the living as Lyra moved away into the land of the dead.
"My heart, Will..." she groaned, and clung to him, her wet face contorted with pain.
And thus the prophecy that the Master of Jordan College had made to the Librarian, that Lyra would make a great betrayal and it would hurt her terribly, was fulfilled.

It's strange how memory works. When I re-read Northern Lights recently there were whole chunks I'd forgotten, like the roping. But then there were other parts that I remembered very distinctly, like the Spy Fly.

[cjp]

Yes, PP has said himself that that is The Betrayal. It's also stated in TAS...

...

It's strange how memory works. When I re-read Northern Lights recently there were whole chunks I'd forgotten, like the roping. But then there were other parts that I remembered very distinctly, like the Spy Fly.

Ah, yes. Another example of me commenting on chapters I can't remember. I wonder if the NL chapter called "Betrayal" was an intentional red herring then?

I'd also completely forgotten about the roping. I'm pretty sure I only remembered all the bits that shouted MURDER / POISONING / INCISION/ ARMOURED BEARS.

Mark gets to Chapter 21 tomorrow! I don't think I'M PREPARED for his reaction.

[thelxiepia]

The scene with Lyra and Pan kills me every time. I can't even think about it without tearing up. The only thing that I react to worse is when Lyra and Will are separated. I'm talking about really unattractive, snotty crying. The kind that you get a headache from.
I've gotta say, I'm looking forward to what Mark makes of the world of the dead. AND seeing Lee Scoresby again, although that won't be for a few chapters.

[Aileth]

The Harpies was the WORST chapter to read aside from Will and Lyra's separation in the end. Mark was really gutted by the descriptions. I have to commend Pullman on being able to describe in the simplest, most understandable fashion, the worst kind of feelings a human being can have. He gives such perfect comparisons that most people can relate to and fills them with pure force.

I was always saddened that we could never meet the Gallivespians' daemons since they died too soon. I wonder if Pan and Kir saw that part the Gallivespians left behind while on the jetty. Since they are humanoid, would that mean that it's have an animal form, like it does for humans?

[brieana90]

So... I actually wasn't all that upset when Will and Lyra got separated at the end. There was a discussion after Lyra woke up about how Will might have been too perfect and Lyra toned things down way too much after she met him. Maybe that's why I wasn't that sad at the end. I don't know.

I can't wait until we get farther into the world of the dead and one of the ghosts says something about welcoming oblivion? I don't quite remember. I've known quite a few people who looked down on atheism and thought that the idea of there being no god and no afterlife was totally depressing. I'm glad that this series helps shows the more positive aspects of that.

[thelxiepia]

And, of course, there’s the adorable subtext that she herself is pleased by Will’s approval; perhaps she is even beginning to experience a crush as well, but that is something to be dealt with at a much later time.

Hahahaha, you are so not prepared.

The world of the dead is one of my favourite settings in the trilogy. There's a bit somewhere that says (I'm paraphrasing) that the ground has been pressed flat by millions of feet, but the feet weigh no more than feathers, so it must have taken millions of years. That description has always stuck with me, it's so powerful.

[cjp]

And, of course, there’s the adorable subtext that she herself is pleased by Will’s approval; perhaps she is even beginning to experience a crush as well, but that is something to be dealt with at a much later time.

Hahahaha, you are so not prepared.

I think I said it on an earlier MR thread; I did not see this aspect of the plot coming when I first read TAS! I'm not sure if that was me being dense, good writing, or just glossing over too much detail. Let's just say it's all three.

And of all the people in the world who are not prepared, Mark is the MOST NOT PREPARED of them all.

Or something.