Extinct and Unnatural daemon Species

[DutchCrunch]

I did a search and found nothing about this yet...so here goes my train of thought. Please let me know what you all think.

In the HDM books all people in Lyra's (and some other worlds) have daemons. Not one of the people Pullman has shown us has an animal that is at this time extinct, no longer existing. There may be some, but there's not evidence of them.
Then there are also the people (like servants) with animals that don't exist in nature, say dogs. All domestic dogs are bred by humans.
So how does a daemon know what it can chose from? Just basically everything it has heard of or can think of in its life right up to the age of maturity?
That theory is supported by Ms Coulters Golden Monkey (which, as a matter of fact, is not a species). In that case there might be extinct or fictional animals walking around. Who is to say some serialkiller, or another messed up person doesn't take a liking to dinosaurs when is 13 and turns out having a T-Rex as a daemon?

Anyhow, I wonder what you all think about this...what animal species can daemons chose from?

[Soapy]

Hmmm. In some of the earlier editions someone had a basilisk for a daemon but I think that might've been changed.

In any case, I don't think it's a matter of anyone choosing their daemon. If it were then I'm sure there would be lots of people walking around with daemons that do not suit their nature purely because htey do not know enough animals and thefore cannot choose one that suits them. Apparently, mine should be a mongoose and when I was told this I went to the encyclopediea and looked them up. I'm not sure if I agree that it should be my daemon but I can't decide what should be because I don't know anything about the animal kingdom.

How much does Lyra know about Pine Martens anyway?

I reckon someone would have a dodo if that was their nature. On the other hand, I think there are other existing animals that can represent people so there shouldn't be a need for extinct animals. A violent rapist would just have a particularly savage Rotweiler.

[Taroh]

i think i agree with hermit on this one. Like the example of mrs. counter and the golden monkey. yes there is no species of monkey with golden fur but the color of the fur most likely went in some way with the personality of mrs. counter. The same can be said about other peoples daemons, like if they had a daemon that happened to be a butterfly, im sure that the some of the daemonms wouldnt all look like species of butterflies, i mean (just jokingly) if the person was a hippie the wings of the butterfly could be tyedie for all you know.

[Stargirl]

Yeah Hermit, I remember the basilisk, it was one of the scholars daemons in the crypt at Jordan College. And I remember one time at the beggining of TGC, Pan turned into a dragon, when they were fighting with the gyptian kids when billy went missing.
So I think that they can turn into anything, but maybe it's just rarer for them to settle as imaginary creatures. It's a very good question though.

[Jez]

And in NL Lyra and Roger's daemons turn into gargoyles, each trying to be more ugly than the other. Ugh, imagine ending up with a gargoyle as your daemon...

I think that as Stargirl says it would probably be rare for daemons to settle as imaginary creatures. Or perhaps daemons lose this ability when their shapes become fixed i.e. adult daemons must be a real species, whereas children's daemons are more flexible and can turn into imaginary creatures such as dragons.

I think this would work, since there are species of golden monkey, right? Or it may be that L-world has slightly different animal species from our world, so they might have a few different ones to choose from. As for the basilisk example, was that kept in the later editions? And in NL I don't think that Pullman had fully formed his notion of daemons and how it all worked, since in the original versions (like in my copy of NL) one of the daemons was a beautiful woman or something, can't remember the exact quote.

[Stargirl]

Yeah that makes sense about the kids only being able to have imaginary creatures, becuase they have more flexile imaginations than the adults, and ms. coulter maybe has a bit of a mind of a child so her daemon has a imaginary touch to it, the gold... hm....

[juri]

*researches a bit* Golden Lion Tamarin monkeys have gold fur
http://www.aqua.org/animals_goldenliontamarin.html

I never thought about the fact the childrens daemons can change into gargoyles and dragons because they have more flexible imaginations, that makes so much sense!

[Alewyn]

nice find, juri

just a thought: gargoyles=Oxford. Mull over it.

[DutchCrunch]

That is exactly what the Golden Monkey looked like in my head! Awesome find. I'll use that as my avatar I think.

[Stargirl]

wow, that is scary, it actually has golden fur, and it's nearly exactly how i imagined it too.... but i imagined it rounder and fluffier... with a diffrent face.

[ellipsis]

I don't think the space of the things that dæmon forms can represent is too limited by not knowing about all the animals there are. There's always something equally close, equally symbolic. In a culture with fewer animals known, the meaning of each form will be slightly broader, but every personality type will still be mapped onto some species.

As for mythical forms, I think they probably don't happen in Lyra's world, for the same reason: every stable adult personality can be represented by a real animal, and real animals, with their fixed, objective reality and traits, make better symbols than mythological ones whose characteristics are somewhat hazy. There is an acual lizard species called a basilisk, so that might explain the old Master's dæmon.

[Soapy]

*researches a bit* Golden Lion Tamarin monkeys have gold fur
http://www.aqua.org/animals_goldenliontamarin.html

They have *so* got to use those monkey for the *cough* film. Perfect match.

[Taroh]

*researches a bit* Golden Lion Tamarin monkeys have gold fur
http://www.aqua.org/animals_goldenliontamarin.html

wow, i have to admit that i didnt know that monkeys could have gold fur, sure proved me wrong, that monkey looks so cool 2

[Dante]

*researches a bit* Golden Lion Tamarin monkeys have gold fur
http://www.aqua.org/animals_goldenliontamarin.html

They have *so* got to use those monkey for the *cough* film. Perfect match.

Agreed. Though it doesn't look particularly evil... they'll have to work on that.

[Jez]

Oh, so the basilisk is a real species then? Yay, my theory stands!

For me those Golden Lion Tamarin monkeys look too orange - I imagined the fur to be more... golden.

They have *so* got to use those monkey for the *cough* film. Perfect match.

I thought you were against a film?

[Stargirl]

Wow that does look evil...

It does look a bit oranger than i imagined it too... but come on, it's pretty close! It's maybe more bronzy, but that's still not a color I would of expected an animal to have!

[Jaya]

Yeah, it's a good match...although I always imagined a more yellow sort of gold...for the fur. And with a long curly tail.

[Soapy]

They have *so* got to use those monkey for the *cough* film. Perfect match.

I thought you were against a film?

That's why I coughed

[Stargirl]

well it doesn't look like we're going to be able to stop the film does it? so they may as well get the right monkey....

[Alewyn]

so they may as well get the right monkey....

hahahhahahahahhaaaaaa, think of if you heard that out of context... hahahhaaaa I love HDM talk that only Sraffies understand!

And yeah, my monkey was a tad more yellow and less furry.