Seen and Unseen - which would you prefer for your daemon?

[Seraphim]

This is my first topic, and I've read the 10 commandments and it said not to repeat topics or bring back dead topics -- but I searched and couldn't find a similar topic. So, if this has been discussed before, I'm sorry.

When I first came across the idea of having daemons I was literally envious of Lyra having one. I never had a best friend - well there are those that claim we're best friends, but truthfully, we're not and I don't feel that we are. I wanted to have someone (or something) like Pantalaimon in my life and I was thrilled by the idea that HDM introduced.

Then I read the Amber Spyglass and came to that Chapter where Lyra had to leave Pan behind and the guardian of the boat said something that made me rethink my desire to have a daemon I could see and touch. He said that it was Lyra's misfortune that she could see her daemon - and it was - and it made me think: If I could see my soul, to converse with it, and feel it, and have it as my friend, it would be more painful for me to die knowing I would be parting with it.

However, having a daemon would have given me so much joy especially during the time when I needed someone who'd just listen.

So, I'm torn. What about you people here, would you like to have a seen, or unseen daemon? Of couse, for the sake of discussion, share why.

[Soapy]

Aside from there being no need to have an apostrophe in 'daemons' that was a rather good read. I suppose that I'd prefer to have a daemon I can see because then I could actually get to know him better than if he was invisible. After all, when Will is finally reunited with Kirjava Lyra remarks about how much they need to get to know each other and how new it is for them so I guess there is a difference, a BIG difference, between having a seen and unseen daemon.

Also, when you die your daemon just disappears so I don't think it's a case of missing them then. And there are times in this life where you feel so utterly alone that you really need something in your life that loves you unconditionally and daemons seem like the perfect thing for that loneliness. If only George had a daemon!

[Seraphim]

(sorry for the apostrophe)

That's another thing that I would like to expound on; daemons are supposed to be part of you (or me) and are supposed to reflect who we are and how we feel one would think it'd be boring to have another of you around to sort of acknowledge yourself, like the duplicate hollogram in Red Dwarf. However, in Lyra's case, she never had a dull conversation with Pan, they would even get into arguments, and are very affectionate to each other. Gives you a very concrete idea of how you are to yourself - internal debates (though much harder since you can't see the other person you are arguing with), fantasies, imaginations, and self-love that is prominent when we least expect it. Having read Lyra with Pan gave me that insatiable desire to see that daemon in me - if I really have it - to talk with, to share my deepest, darkest secrets with and not be afraid.

And although I know that daemon's disappear when you die, the parting is only instant when you die suddenly. What if you die from a disease and you have to watch your daemon disintegrating? Dying is hard enough, to be parting with those you love without any guarantee you'd see each other again, but to see your lifelong companion dying along with you...to me...I think that is harder.

[Diolmhain]

I would definatelly want one i could see and converese with.
If i had three wishes (due to cleaning my glasses or something).
Then again seeing as my daemon would be a hyperactive lemming.....( I remembered goddammit !)
Also, Hermit, how could you get to know your daemon if you couldnt see or talk it?HMM?

HMMMMM?

[heatheradair]

death wouldn't be bad, i don't think... when you die, you're more one with them than ever before because your atoms disperse and freely mingle amongst themselves and everything else

... that was rather ineloquent, but one of my favorite parts of the trilogy is when lee scoresby is released from the land of the dead to be with hester

Untroubled by the flares and the bursting shells, deaf to the explosions and the shouts and cries of anger and warning and pain, conscious only of his movement upward, the last of Lee Scoresby passed through the heavy clouds and came out under the brilliant stars, where the atoms of his beloved daemon, Hester, were waiting for him.

... and when lyra and will talk about how their particles will be together forever when they die

"I will love you forever, whatever happens. Till I die and after I die, and when I find my way out of the land of the dead, I'll drift about forever, all my atoms, till I find you again..."

"I'll be looking for you, Will, every moment, every single moment. And when we do find each other again, we'll cling together so tight that nothing and no one'll ever tear us apart. Every atom of me and every atom of you... We'll live in birds and flowers and dragonflies and pine trees and in clouds and in those little specks of light you see floating in sunbeams... And when they use our atoms to make new lives, they won't just be able to take one, they'll have to take two, one of you and one of me, we'll be joined so tight..."

[Soapy]

death wouldn't be bad, i don't think... when you die, you're more one with them than ever before because your atoms disperse and freely mingle amongst themselves and everything else

... that was rather ineloquent, but one of my favorite parts of the trilogy is when lee scoresby is released from the land of the dead to be with hester

Untroubled by the flares and the bursting shells, deaf to the explosions and the shouts and cries of anger and warning and pain, conscious only of his movement upward, the last of Lee Scoresby passed through the heavy clouds and came out under the brilliant stars, where the atoms of his beloved daemon, Hester, were waiting for him.

That bit always makes me cry, heather. Beautiful. Really really beautiful.

Also, Hermit, how could you get to know your daemon if you couldnt see or talk it?HMM?

I suppose that I'd prefer to have a daemon I can see because then I could actually get to know him better than if he was invisible. After all, when Will is finally reunited with Kirjava Lyra remarks about how much they need to get to know each other and how new it is for them so I guess there is a difference, a BIG difference, between having a seen and unseen daemon.

Do you read with your eyes closed?

daemon's

*shudders*

[Seraphim]

cringe-worthy apostrophe deleted

There are so many heart-wrenching scenes in HDM, I don't know where to start - but the most painful one for me is the parting of Lyra and Pan. I literally cried reading that part.

[Seraphim]

death wouldn't be bad, i don't think... when you die, you're more one with them than ever before because your atoms disperse and freely mingle amongst themselves and everything else

That is, of course, considering we go through this process. What if we don't? What if when you die, there is nothing. No sound, no light, no darkness, nothing. Just oblivion. What then?

... and when lyra and will talk about how their particles will be together forever when they die

"I will love you forever, whatever happens. Till I die and after I die, and when I find my way out of the land of the dead, I'll drift about forever, all my atoms, till I find you again..."

"I'll be looking for you, Will, every moment, every single moment. And when we do find each other again, we'll cling together so tight that nothing and no one'll ever tear us apart. Every atom of me and every atom of you... We'll live in birds and flowers and dragonflies and pine trees and in clouds and in those little specks of light you see floating in sunbeams... And when they use our atoms to make new lives, they won't just be able to take one, they'll have to take two, one of you and one of me, we'll be joined so tight..."

That --- that just made me cry again. Unconditional love. I can't wait for the films!!!

[Kahlan]

I think I would like to have the daemon unseen. That would be because if I were to have a seen daemon, I would get used to the reality of sharing my everything with someone, even though that someone was a part of me, and having to part with that one would be all the more painful.

But even if it wouldn't be that painful, if the daemon just faded away when you died, I can't imagine the feeling of being watched every hour of the day, not even by a part of myself.
I like my space, and I like spending time alone.

I can't wait for the films!!!

I can..
It's not doomed to be bad, but I think it's doomed to be quite a bit below the books, and that will be an anticipated disappointment.

[Leif]

But even if it wouldn't be that painful, if the daemon just faded away when you died, I can't imagine the feeling of being watched every hour of the day, not even by a part of myself.
I like my space, and I like spending time alone.

Maybe your daemon would be the same way and want his/her alone time as well.

I can't wait for the films!!!

I can..
It's not doomed to be bad, but I think it's doomed to be quite a bit below the books, and that will be an anticipated disappointment.

I agree.

Edit: Almost forgot - I think I'd rather be able to see my daemon.

[ellipsis]

I'd definitely prefer my dæmon being physical/visible over anything else. It's a pity that some people never get to meet theirs at all, and the half-seeing method that Serafina teaches Mary at the end of the books just doesn't compare to the solid, everyday realness of dæmons in Lyra's world.

But even if it wouldn't be that painful, if the daemon just faded away when you died, I can't imagine the feeling of being watched every hour of the day, not even by a part of myself.
I like my space, and I like spending time alone.

I think for people like you in Lyra's world, their dæmon is the part of themself that they enjoy spending time alone with. Of course it's weird if you think of it as adding another "self" that follows you around, but it wouldn't be if you think of it as becoming conscious of what already exists on some level.

There are so many heart-wrenching scenes in HDM, I don't know where to start - but the most painful one for me is the parting of Lyra and Pan. I literally cried reading that part.

For me, the scene in "The Dunes" when Will meets Kirjava for the first time and Lyra and Pan are reunited is always the heart-mending counterpart to the Styx scene. I can never put down TAS between the two; I have to go straight through from one to the other.

how could you get to know your daemon if you couldnt see or talk it?HMM?

*coughTDPcough*, not that that's what hermit was talking about at all.
In the interests of everyone's sanity (and that of the board as a whole), pretend I never said that.

[Jez]

I definitely agree with you Seraphim - when I first read NL, my immediate reaction was, I want a daemon too! So yes, a visible daemon. I often have internal conversations in my head anyway. It would be great if I could discuss things with my daemon. I think it would also be nice to know a bit more of my personality and other people's too, since you could tell what type of person they are just by looking at their daemon.

If only they weren't a fictional invention. *sigh* For me, daemons are the best idea in the books by a long shot.

That is, of course, considering we go through this process. What if we don't? What if when you die, there is nothing. No sound, no light, no darkness, nothing. Just oblivion. What then?

This is what terrifies me about death: the idea that your consciousness just vanishes. Makes life seem kind of pointless because once your life ends, that's it. You're not going to remember it, and why make a mark on the world when you're never going to experience it again? And everyone else will die anyway as well... Still, I have to convince myself that if oblivion is all that awaits us, it won't matter to you when it happens because you won't exist. There is no 'what then'. So, er, don't worry about it.

Finally, I would rather share a lifetime with a daemon as my companion and face the agony of parting than not experience that at all.

[Jamie]

Hmm, I'd have to say I wouldn't prefer an external daemon.

Perhaps it's partly because of my upbringing and I've never really been lonely - older brother, wide group of friends and loving family etc. Much to the contrary, I can think of several occasions when I've been desperate to get out of the house, go and find a field or park and just, be alone.

Then again, when Lyra goes on to the roof and screams with Pan following suit, I suppose that's a bit different to having someone else with you when you need to get things out of your system..

..

Nah, I'm sticking with my original thought process - there's too many times when I have to be alone and don't want anyone/thing, part of me or other talking to me.


Edit: great thread btw, you forced me to actually engage my brain today <thumbs up>

[Death Be Known]

I would want a daemon that you can see, and talk to.
For every one needs a good friend in times of need.

If I had a daemon it would be Dragon, because they are powerful, dangerous, and also very beautiful.

[Seraphim]

Do you think that most of us "daemonless" people tend to be reckless because we can't see our daemons? I for one have been reckless to the point of suicide because I feel no responsibility whatsoever to anyone - not even to myself.

If I could see my daemon, I would be immensely aware of another being that would be affected adversely by the decisions I make and the things I do and therefore be more careful and responsible.

I could see that in Lyra; Pan's existence depends on how she carries both their lives and because she could see him and have a relationship with him, she cares enough not to place them both in mortal danger.

Will on the other, in the absence of a seen daemon, and with only his mother as gauge, is more reckless - until of course he met Lyra and became responsible for her.

[Kahlan]

But even if it wouldn't be that painful, if the daemon just faded away when you died, I can't imagine the feeling of being watched every hour of the day, not even by a part of myself.
I like my space, and I like spending time alone.

I think for people like you in Lyra's world, their dæmon is the part of themself that they enjoy spending time alone with. Of course it's weird if you think of it as adding another "self" that follows you around, but it wouldn't be if you think of it as becoming conscious of what already exists on some level.

Perhaps.. I might be making the mistake of thinking about the daemon as another "self" that would follow me around, but even when I take that into consideration I still would want my daemon on the inside.
Sure, it would be nice to be able to have something to talk to, but Lyra didn't share everything with Pan either, did she?
How difficult wouldn't it be to keep secrets from a part of yourself? And Pan and Lyra even argued (if only a little). I don't like to argue..

If I could see my daemon, I would be immensely aware of another being that would be affected adversely by the decisions I make and the things I do and therefore be more careful and responsible.

What you do affect other people... If you were to have a daemon, you would be responible to your daemon, in addition to everyone around you.
If you are being reckless, and it results in something...bad, everyone around you would be affected and hurt because of that.. Wouldn't they?

[Seraphim]

But I didn't care about everyone around me. That's the point. I didn't give a hoot what my actions do to other people, I couldn't care less if they died. I was a rebel. My recklessness I think had something to do with the fact that I don't care with them because I have no relationship with them - even if I get hurtI am the only one that matters to me anyway. If they got swiped by it, sorry to them, but I won't be missing sleep over it.

However, if I had a daemon with whom I have built a relationship with much like Lyra and Pan, well, I would have been more careful. I think it's the relationship built on something animate that makes the idea of having a daemon so appealing.

[Jaya]

I'd rather not have a daemon. Sometimes peace and being alone is nice. Lyra couldn't understand what it was to be alone, she said it would be so...lonely, for Will. But sometimes I like that.

And...much as I love the idea of conversing and arguing with a physical manifestation of a part of myself, I can talk to myself without one too. I'd be scared of people overhearing me talking to my daemon because I'm private :/ And yes, to an extent, you share thoughts with your daemon....but Lyra and Pan still talked a lot... It's too open.

I don't think being daemonless is so different from having a daemon, because a daemon is still a part of yourself. And having that inside is ok. It was ok for Will, and it was ok for Mary Malone and it wasn't like they'd created a whole new sort of themselves when they'd got daemons, it was still them.

[TyrannisUmbra]

What if you die from a disease and you have to watch your daemon disintegrating?

Firstly, that would be untrue. If you're mortally ill, you're not partially dead. Death is a finality; you can't be partially dead, or more dead. It's a finality.

Secondly, as for myself, I'd like to have my dæmon be physical. To me, it would be worth it all if I could physically be with her in this life.

[Stargirl]

I would want my daemon seen rather than unseen. because yes it was Lyra's misfortune to know what she was losing, but it was also will's misfortune not to know what he was losing. becuase will went through as much pain as Lyra, but didn't have all the love he felt towards his daemon to make up for it.