Brain dead daemons

[Soapy]

Hello all from America.

So, I was listening to HDM on the plane (thank you very much Raevyn for sending me them) and I was listening to the bit where our favourite Texan dies and it got me thinking about this business of daemons disappearing when people die.

Let's assume that when a daemon vanishes it means the person is dead. Gone. No chance of coming back what-so-ever.

When is this point? The debate of when someone is dead often puts families and medics in a difficult situation when they have someone whose brain is dead and gone but whose body still works. Are they dead? Are their daemons still there?

My own opinion is that since a person's daemon is a reflection of their mind - not their bodies - their daemon would disappear when their brain died, not when their heart stopped beating.

Anyone else care to contribute?

[Huginn]

I think we can agree that, in terms of the books, that moment is when the person steps through a window leading to the world of the dead (or, perhaps, the moment when that person becomes capable of doing so).

But this doesn't change how we would be able to tell that from the outside. All I can see is that it would make those decisions about whether to cut life-support a bit more trivial. Trying to quality what constitutes brain death and what doesn't (after all, the brain is a mysterious organ, which seems to reawaken at the most arbitrary of moments) is just so difficult.

[Jez]

I think that if someone was brain dead but their body was still alive, their daemon would probably still be there, but unconscious. If someone's in a coma, the daemon would be too.

[Peter]

Motionless person, no pulse, no daemon visisble = deader OR seriously concussed witch.

[Diolmhain]

If the daemon does dissapear when the brain dies what would happen if it came back to life?

[jessia]

brain death is irreversible and different than the comatose state... so there'd be no daemon revival in the case of brain death i guess.


this kind of questions how the soul operates i guess... but i like sophie's opinion... the daemon/soul dies when the person dies, not its body?

[Soapy]

brain death is irreversible and different than the comatose state... so there'd be no dæmon revival in the case of brain death i guess.

That's what i meant. As in, when someone's has severe brain damage so that even if their body does come back they wouldn't have any chance of knowing who they are or doing those things that generally make us human.

[Claire de la Lune]

I suppose if the brain came back the daemon would too, only it would be in the same state of not knowing what it was, basically like the human itself. The daemon would be there physically, but it would not have its higher thinking or any of the normal functions we would connect it to.

[Somewhat]

If daemons vanish when you die, would it make sense for them to die when you fall into a coma? So, not vanish but stop moving and lie there. Since they don't breathe anyway I guess that's all they can do.
It's not as obvious as it sounds. After all, all daemons in the books were in some state of consciousness, or slipping away into death.

[Gabe]

Yeah, this is the way I see it...if someone is in a coma but doesn't have brain damage to the parts of their brain, that makes the person the person which they are, then their daemon will simply be unconscious/inactive but will become active again if the person recovers. If there is partial brain damage, then I think their daemon will change to reflect that. If there is complete damage to the parts of the brain, that make the person the person which they are, then their daemon disappears just like they're dead (because they, as a person, are dead).

The most interesting part of this to me is the in-between case...how ones daemon would change to reflect the change in you from the brain damage...

[Calix]

I d'know, you guys have lots of good ideas and they all make perfect sense. Even if someone were braindead, I think the daemon would still be there, just...equally as braindead. :P

When the person stops breathing on their own and his heart stops beating, then I think the daemon would die. Definitively.

[jessia]

I d'know, you guys have lots of good ideas and they all make perfect sense. Even if someone were braindead, I think the dæmon would still be there, just...equally as braindead.

When the person stops breathing on their own and his heart stops beating, then I think the dæmon would die. Definitively.

but a daemon isn't a reflection of a person's vitality, it's a reflection of their conciousness... i had an argument about a daemon during the dreamstate but it's not fully formed... more later.

[Stargirl]

I think that the daemon wouldn't dissapear until the body dies aswell. but i think it might depend. we don't know if the daemons body works the same as the humans, like the discussion on whether the daemon eats? if it eats the obviosuly it poos, and if it poos and eats it has a heart aswell, a heart that's beating. but i think its possible that the deamondoesnt exist the same way the human does. it doesnt necessarily have working internal organs, it just is. after all, it can change its shape, so the laws that aply to us dont anply to the daemon. i think daemons are made of soe diffrent matter than humans.

[Gabe]

I've recently started rereading the books, and while reading NL I noticed how Farder Coram and his daemon were described...

She could hardly take her eyes off Farder Coram's daemon, who was the most beautiful daemon she'd ever seen. When Pantalaimon was a cat he was lean and ragged and harsh, but Sophonax, for that was her name, was golden-eyed and elegant beyond measure, fully twice as large as a real cat and richly furred. When the sunlight touched her, it lit up more shades of tawny-brown-leaf-hazel-corn-autumn-mahogany then Lyra could name.

...

Sophonax was as sleek and beautiful as Farder Coram was ravaged and weak. He might have been ill, or he might have suffered a crippling blow, but the result was that he could not walk without leaning on two sticks, and he trembled constantly like an aspen leaf. His mind was sharp and clear and powerful, though, and soon Lyra came to love him for his knowledge and for the firm way he directed her.

So, clearly daemons reflect the mental state of their humans, not the physical.

Seriously, if you removed someone’s brain entirely (just to emphasize the point), without preserving its physical state (i.e. cyropreserving it), and kept the body hooked up to a machine so it would keep functioning, how can you say the person is still alive? And how could their daemon still be alive, without the mind they were connected to?

[Peter]

So, clearly dæmons reflect the mental state of their humans, not the physical.

Or they complement those states.

[Somewhat]

How would they do that?

[Peter]

How would they do that?

If the human were happy, the daemon might be unhappy. If the human were reckless, the daemon might be cautious. Etc.

[Jaya]

I always thought Pan seemed more cautious than Lyra's flagrant recklessness.

[jessia]

but couldn't that just represent an otherwise inner voice in lyra that tends toward reason rather than adventure? not neccessarily the conscience, but perhaps hesitation...

[Somewhat]

This is starting to get side-tracked, we can probably spilt the threads if it continues.

I think daemons do actually include a person's conscience, for why else would people ask advice of their daemons?