The loopholes thread

[Gabe]

I thought that it was supposed to be something more than just imagining...

[Carina]

The imagination thing they could do anytime, but searching desperatel for a window would lead them far awya from the societies they need to help rebuild.

[AySz88]

They don't know how to use "imagination" yet, though...

[Gabe]

What I meant was, I thought Will asked Xaphania if it was just imagining, and she said it wasn't...

[AySz88]

No, he asked if it was like pretending. Xaphania used the word "imagination".

[Pyr]

well "imagining" lyra sounds like something else i thought it was sort of a trance deal

[eloquent]

I always thought it was a kind of shared interactive dream that was achieved by imagining you were with the other person, so was called imagination.

[Carina]

The dreamish like thing does make sense.

[donkey_booter]

there are loads of ways you can look at what will happen to will and lyra after the events of TAS and all of them are fairly posotive, unless both get killed before the age of 20.
1. It doesnt matter if will learns to do that imagination thing the angel told him about. It'd be nice if he did because then he could talk to Lyra and it'd be pretty near real and if not at least he could "keep in touch .
2. If he doesn't then they meet up after death and do that neat atom joining trick so they can be together forever (aaawwww.)
3. Maybe both of them'll forget about each other and marry someone else maybe. It would sort of be a happy ending because the characters would be happy.
4. I think the most likely is the first one because wills dad learnt how to do it really well (he downed 3 or more zepplins with it) after only 10 years so will might learn to do it fairly well after 5 years. both characters would be about 17-18 but 5 years isnt much compared to a lifetime.
5. Worst case senario is that Will doesn't learn the fancy imagination thing, neither Lyra or Will marry and both cry constantly for each other, Lyra doesn't learn to read the althiometer at all, Will gets put in an orphanage and Mary gets put in jail for a bit. But then again theres the fairly corny ending of them both joining atoms after death.
Anyway their my thoughts. Philip Pullmans left loads of paths open for the story to go down but i doubt he'll write another book about Lyra and Will (maybe just Lyra) and instead leave it up to poor unimaginative, by comparison to PP, people to think up an ending.

[AySz88]

Welcome to the boards, btw.

[jessia]

imagination

i·mag·i·na·tion [i màjjə náysh’n]
n

1. ability to visualize: the ability to form images and ideas in the mind, especially of things never seen or never experienced directly

2. creative part of the mind: the part of the mind where ideas, thoughts, and images are formed

3. resourcefulness: the ability to think of ways of dealing with difficulties or problems

4. creative act: an act of creating a semblance of reality, especially in literature

Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2003. © 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

[Peter]

Enlighten us o wise one. But not if it's more than 200 words, please!

I haven't got much time, but:

Basically there are uniclusters which are made up of a bunch of universes. All the universes that Will travelled to (and all the other ones he could "feel") are all in one unicluster. The subtle knife cannot cut through to other uniclusters because uniclusters don't "touch" each other. You can travel between uniclusters with a quantum teleporter.

Ah. Pretty much what I wrote in Threads, then.

http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=701005&chapter=11

Ceres

[Justine]

oh please. no more uniclusters!

[donkey_booter]

Hmmmm ok ill be truthful about this. I dont really have a clue how this imagination out of body thing works but hopefully some people will agree with my idea and not think im talking loads of mumbo jumbo. Ok here it goes.
When Wills dad (John Parry) tried to do it he didnt have the strength to finish off the final Zepplin and he seemed to be in a state of trance while doing it. Mary was also in a sort of trance when she started to fly off with the dust. Now what i think is that imagination does come into it a bit in that you have to imagine you are not part of your body anymore. Mary did it quite easily, maybe because she thought what it would be like to be a particle of dust and imagined flying in the same direction as the dust. It might not be as easy for Wills dad because he doesnt have such a good example as the slow and steady flowing of the dust to look at, or maybe Mary just has a good frame of mind. Anyway it was quite an effort for Mary to get back into her body so maybe the more time you spend outside your body the harder it is to get back into it which may explain a bit of John Parry's exaustion or maybe just having to be so calm and focused like Mary and John were is enough to exhaust you mentally (i know i get like that after trying to look at those eeevil magic eye things.)
Anyway i hope people have understood why i think imagination is important for seperating soul(or whatever it is) and body.

[Will]

Nice

Even if this imagination thing works really well and Will can talk to Lyra (and vice versa) he still won't have what he wants - to be able to touch her. All the way through HDM it's been saying how crappy this sort of contact is next to the real thing, they'd be like two angels talking..

[donkey_booter]

at least they'd be able to see each other before death i suppose. it'd be better than nothing but i was thinking about how they'd be able to travel between worlds. Maybe when you do the imagination thing your body becomes seperate from your soul so you become like those ghosts in the land of the dead. Then you'd be able to seperate your atoms (like Lee Scoresby did after he'd helped Lyra one last time.) Then maybe because the tip of the subtle knife was atoms thick then Will would feel the same gaps in the air as he did with the Subtle knife and therefore be able to travel to worlds again but it'd take a lot of mental effort to do that.
uggh. I think ive thought about this too much . . .

[Nix]

or, they could both stay in the world of the dead together

[donkey_booter]

well yeah i suppose they could but it would be a bit (rhyms with nappie) if they stayed there. Think of how bored out of their skulls those ghosts were after being in the land of the dead for a bit. Actually though now the harpies are nicer and they could hear some interesting stories so i suppose it might not be too bad. Anyway i was searching for some interviews with PP to see if i could find anything about the Bof D and i found this by accident

(Post number one)

"What do I think will happen to Will? I think he will go home and find that his mother is already in hospital, being looked after. I think that Mary will help him make everything straight about the man he killed (accident - panic - natural impulse to run away - understandable reaction) and arrange for him to live with her in Oxford until his mother is better again. Later I think he'll go to medical school and become a doctor. He and Mary will be close friends for all their lives. She is the one who will tell him how to imagine his way into o

(Amazon has a 1000 word restriction and hed used up about 900 before he wrote this)

Philip Pullman - 03:58pm Feb 9, 2001 PDT (#115 of 122)
... and I guess the last few sentences got cut off.

. . .but then he didn't go on to finish off what he said. At this sudden realisation i felt like pulling all my hair out , throwing the monitor out of the window and shouting abuse at old women . Luckily for me i held myself back and only did the last one of these i mentioned

[Tristan]

I don't recognize that quote... was it in the Darkness Visible amazon interview, or a different one? hmm... what's the URL? cause I don't think we have that one...

EDIT: nvm, it's the readerville interview...

[donkey_booter]

its not on amazon at all . I don't know where i got that one from. Its actually from
http://www.readerville.com/WebX?14@17.k ... .ef6c70e/0

be sure to read the whole thing. Lots of points discussed on other threads here are answered by PP